(Final?) Tuning of Ideologies, Freedom

[CrazyG]

Current freedom tenets. G stated he liked lists like this, and I always liked having all the information available to see in the first post.

A means a good tenet, not too weak or too strong, so no changes (or very minor changes) needed.

C means it needs small changes as its either overperforming or underperforming

F means its failing to do its job

Tier 1
Avant Garde- +33% Great People
(A)- its a good tenet. Not great, but a consistent options when you need a tier 1 and nothing else appeals

Covert Action- Chance of rigging election in city states doubled. Receive extra spies, based on number of city states in game
(A or C)- for some reason I thought this doubled the chance to coup a city state, which is usually what extra spies end up doing. I find that 2 extra spies can be worth a tenet

Creative Expression- +1 culture from great works. Amphitheaters, Broadcast Towers, and Opera Houses gain +2 golden age points
(F)- its a terrible policy that provides far too little

Economic Union- Receive an additional trade route. +3 gold from trade routes with civs following freedom
(C)- Never looked good to me, but maybe a good policy for Portugal or the Ottomans. Even with +3 gold you can often get more by trading with a loser civ with no ideology, thanks to the bonuses for cultural influence. The +3 gold could get buffed, or also apply to allied city states

Transnationalism- Each turn there is a chance that a corporate franchise will appear in a foreign city. Global franchise maximum increased by 20%
(A)- Others have assured me its a strong tenet

Universal Healthcare- Receive a free hospital in every city. +50 culture when a citizen is born in any city, scaling with era
(A or C)- First of all, I think the description for the hospital has been wrong for months. IDK exactly how that science is calculated (is it applied after the population eats, before or after food mulitpliers, does the science get hit by multipliers too?)

Generally speaking Hospitals are a pretty weak building, its production cost and maintenance are really high for its yields. So the tenet lets you avoid spending hammers on a weak building. Its also a requirement for the medical lab, which is desirable for a science win.

But if pursuing a very high growth strategy this tenet is amazing, maybe even OP. As India in particular its very powerful. 50 scaling with era is comparable to a great person spending just for growing in population

Urbanization- +2 food from farms, camps, plantations and all unique improvements
(A)- great tenet, well designed. Its very strong in the right circumstance, but not always

Volunteer Army- 6 units are maintenance free. Recieve 6 foreign legions immediately
(C)- a bunch of people have suggested adding 6 supply to this tenet. Do that and its an (A)

Tier 2
Arsenal of Democracy- +15% production of military units. +10 influence with all known city states when you expend great people
(A)- It can be a very low cost way of friending all CS and competing for allies with some. Production towards military units is a secondary benefit that is sometimes useful

Capitalism- 5 specialists in each city no longer cause unhappiness
(F)- Universal suffrage or Their Finest Hour seem much better choices to me.

Civil Society- specialists consume half the normal amount of food
(A)- very powerful tenet that makes heavy specialist strategies work all the better

New Deal-Landmarks and great person improvements produce +4 of the appropriate yield
(C)- its a great tenet for a one city challenge. Outside of that you can't realistically get enough great person tiles for this to do enough

Their Finest Hour- Combat strength of cities increases by 33%. Can build B52 bombers
(A)- I have been convinced its very strong

Universal Suffrage- Golden Ages last 50% longer. All cities produce +1 Happiness
(A)- the golden age boost plays right into classic freedom strategies. Happiness isn't freedom's strong suit, but its nice to have an option

Tier 3
Media Culture- +33% tourism and +1 happiness from cities with a broadcast tower. +20% culture from stadiums
(A++)- Rush broadcast towers and go for the win very few civs will be able to defend the tourism barrage this creates. It might be too strong, this has allowed me to muscle my way into influencing Japan

Space Procurements- May buy spaceship parts with gold. Build spaceship factories in half the usual time. +20% science from research labs
(A++)- Buying spaceship parts is by far the fastest way to get a spaceship built. Early research labs moves your science so far ahead its disgusting. This tenet easily causes a science win to come 20 or 30 turns earlier by itself

Treaty Organization- +4 influence per turn from city states you have a trade route with. Receive 4 delegates in the World Congress (scaling with map size)
(A)- another powerhouse tenet tied directly to a specific win condition. Extra delegates help you win. The influence on trade routes comes in handy for influence races. Combined with Arsenal of Democracy you get so much passive influence, but overall I think the other tier 3s do their job slightly better

 

[ElliotS]

I agree with your assessments entirely.

Their finest hour is an A imo. Especially when you're forced to pick freedom as a warmonger.

 

[CrazyG]

I agree with your assessments entirely.

Their finest hour is an A imo. Especially when you're forced to pick freedom as a warmonger.

Is Capitalism any good? You said you liked it in another thread, but it seems to me that there are 2 better happiness policies available, in finest hour and universal suffrage. Is there something I missed?

 

[ElliotS]

Is Capitalism any good? You said you liked it in another thread, but it seems to me that there are 2 better happiness policies available, in finest hour and universal suffrage. Is there something I missed?

I think it's weak, just not useless. I was forced into Freedom as Aztecs once and it allowed me to take another few late game cities at a time with war weariness setting in.

 

[bigcat88]

Creative Expression and New Deal is bad.
Would be great to replace them with something new.

Transnationalism is fine, those 20% increased monopoly cup is good. And to make them faster u need Economic Union

 

[intelli]

I agree with your assessments entirely.

Their finest hour is an A imo. Especially when you're forced to pick freedom as a warmonger.

It's an A for any situation, playing tall as a science leader and not taking it can be suicidal.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

New Deal isn't as good now that GP Improvements have multiple tech buffs. Would bumping up it's numbers help?

I would rather mix it with Capitalism.

 

[CrazyG]

I'm putting finest hour and transnationalism to A.

This suggestion for Creative Expression has been made in another thread
+2 +2 from Museums, Broadcast Towers, Opera Houses, and Ampitheaters. +2 from Great Works
Its definitely an improvement

Capitalism just seems pointless to me. Its a lot more complicated than Universal Suffrage and just weaker. I guess sometimes 0.25 happiness might be worth more than the golden age bonus? It just seems way too niche. Their Finest Hour also should provide at least 1.25 happiness per city with its powerful crime boost

I'm not convinced New Deal is actually that bad. You need to be extremely tall to use it well but its a decent amount of yields. Maybe buff it to 5 of the appropriate yield?

 

[Grabbl]

I agree on most of the ratings, too.

However, some annotations:

Universal Healthcare is an A for me, I usually need Hospitals in all my cities for poverty reduction (and prerequisite for medical lab), and the culture is fine also.

I rarely take urbanization, usually because it doesn't buff GP improvements and I don't have tons of farms I want to work (unless going the Cathedrals Strategy with Imperialism). I would rate it C, for that reason. Extending it to GP improvements would overbuff those, however.

New Deal is not that bad for me, either. For any capital-centric strategy it's awesome, for its yield and especially because in late game, concentrated yields (on one or a few cities) are even stronger (for percentage modifiers, wonders and modern unit production). If others think it is not strong enough, perhaps a buff to GS/GE/GMusic/GMerch bulbing yields could be an option. But also here, I think that the GP strategy is already strong enough, so it might be bad for balance.

 

[intelli]

Urbanisation has great synergy with Universal Healthcare and as a T1 you're not really making any difficult choices, definitely not a problem.

 

[De_Genius]

Tier 1
Avant Garde- +33% Great People
A - Seems to do its job, no more or more less

Covert Action- Chance of rigging election in city states doubled. Receive extra spies, based on number of city states in game
A - The extra spies are really nice controlling city states and using them to rig election

Creative Expression- +1 culture from great works. Amphitheaters, Broadcast Towers, and Opera Houses gain +2 golden age points
C - Seems very weak. The culture is insignificant and while the GAP is nice, it is not enough

Economic Union- Receive an additional trade route. +3 gold from trade routes with civs following freedom
F - The extra trade route is nice, but not great either. The +3 G is underwhelming, and often very hard to achieve, since civs prefer to take different ideologies to get the early tenets unless they are completely dominated already by tourism

Transnationalism- Each turn there is a chance that a corporate franchise will appear in a foreign city. Global franchise maximum increased by 20%
F - Speeds up the usefulness of corporations but the +20% is only 1-2 extra franchises. Not ever worth taking imo

Universal Healthcare- Receive a free hospital in every city. +50 culture when a citizen is born in any city, scaling with era
A++ - I always take this when playing Freedom. A hospital provides reduced gold demand, gives food and increased healing inside a city, and now it is free. Also a hospital can be very useful if this policy is chosen first. Also future policies are sped up by the extra culture. I love this one

Urbanization- +2 food from farms, camps, plantations and all unique improvements
A - Seems fine to be. Gives a crapton of food, and if you play a civ with a UI, they become very nice

Volunteer Army- 6 units are maintenance free. Recieve 6 foreign legions immediately
C - 6 Foreign Legions early can be nice, but without supply it is only meh

Tier 2
Arsenal of Democracy- +15% production of military units. +10 influence with all known city states when you expend great people
A - Going conquest gives more units, going GP heavy gives lots of influence and permanent friends/allies

Capitalism- 5 specialists in each city no longer cause unhappiness
A - Going specialist heavy this gives -2.5 happiness per city which can be a lot in a wide empire, but nothing in a tall one

Civil Society- specialists consume half the normal amount of food
F - This is only nice when going heavy specialists, and even then the amount of food reduction is almost unnoticeable. Needs rework imo

New Deal-Landmarks and great person improvements produce +4 of the appropriate yield
A - Seems good to me. Lots of extra yields when going GP heavy

Their Finest Hour- Combat strength of cities increases by 33%. Can build B52 bombers
A - Gives good CS for cities making happiness easier to manage. The bombers are also nice to use defensively. I never take this though due to much better Tier2 alternatives

Universal Suffrage- Golden Ages last 50% longer. All cities produce +1 Happiness
A - The extra GA length combined with Tradition and a wonder or two provides very very long GA periods making them almost permanent. The extra happiness fuels the GA earning

Tier 3
Media Culture- +33% tourism and +1 happiness from cities with a broadcast tower. +20% culture from stadiums
C - Extra tourism and culture is nice while the happiness is miniscule. +culture to broadcast tower would be nicer

Space Procurements- May buy spaceship parts with gold. Build spaceship factories in half the usual time. +20% science from research labs
A - The ability to buy space parts alone is worth this. This speeds up a space victory by a ton.

Treaty Organization- +4 influence per turn from city states you have a trade route with. Receive 4 delegates in the World Congress (scaling with map size)
A++ - Permanent allies with city states with trade routes, and a boatload of delegates making diplo victory very easy.

I go Freedom when trying to do a diplomatic or science victory, which it supports well.
I always play on huge maps on Marathon speed.

 

[ElliotS]

I think you're way off on a lot of your evaluations. I don't know how you can give Creative Expression a C and anything else an F.

I also think you're crazy for rating Civil Society, one of the strongest policies in the game, an F. It's literally like 8 or more food per city, which means less people working food tiles or more growth.

Additionally rating Media Culture lower than Treaty Organization is insane. Media culture is a HUGE boost, and Treaty Orginization is an A imo, but not better than Media Culture or Space Procurements.

Capitalism- 5 specialists in each city no longer cause unhappiness
A - Going specialist heavy this gives -2.5 happiness per city which can be a lot in a wide empire, but nothing in a tall one

You've got the math wrong. This is 1.25 happiness.

 

[CrazyG]

I put Universal Healthcare as a (A or C), because its debatabley too strong. I think maybe the 50 culture could be lowered to to 40, or maybe even 30

Civil Society is extremely good. Specialists consume more food in later eras, by modern its worth 3 food per specialist.

Media Culture- +33% tourism and +1 happiness from cities with a broadcast tower. +20% culture from stadiums
C - Extra tourism and culture while the happiness is miniscule. +culture to broadcast tower would be nicer

Extra culture doesn't matter that much at this stage of the game, you already have a tier 3 tenet that directly boosts your win condition. That tourism boost is incredibly powerful

 

[Grabbl]

So, on what do we agree that should be changed?

There seems to be an agreement for the following points:

1) Volunteer Army should provide +6 unit supply in addition to the present buffs, then it's fine.
2) Creative Expression is far too weak. The only proposition is the one from CrazyG to give an additional +2 to the culture buildings and replace +1 from Great works with +2 .
3) Economic Union is too weak. There was the proposition to extend its bonus to allied city states.
4) Capitalism is too weak. There were no propositions on how to balance this.

Is that correct? And what are your opinions about the proposed changes?

My opinions:
1) Good.
2) Tourism already has major bonusses and might (again) get a bit to strong with the "Great Works"-part. Perhaps, I would prefer replacing this part with either "-25% faith purchase costs for Great Writers, Artists and Musicians, and the ability to purchase them" or "+5% gold from museums". I don't know if the first one is compatible with Gazebos "no new code"-policy.
3) I'm not sure if this is enough, but it surely is a step in the right direction.
4) I fully agree this tenet is too weak. How about extending it by a gold-focused part (it's called "Capitalism" after all...) like "+3 gold, +2 GA points from merchants" or "+15% gold from Stock Exchange"?

For Universal Healthcare, I agree with CrazyG that it might be a bit too strong. I can not remember a Freedom Game at all where I didn't take this as first or second tenet. Reducing culture seems ok.

 

[CrazyG]

That creative expression idea isn't mine, i copied it from another thread. I don't see myself choosing that option very often, as Healthcare seems better, but I guess you could take both. Culture is good for a freedom player because you want to get those tier 3 tenets quickly. You could give +2 from great works instead of tourism

How about Capitalism provides a free great merchant? That is unique and interesting

 

[Enginseer]

The only problem with Creative Expression is that Golden Age Points meter is very huge especially in the late game and a potential of +6 GAP per city isn't going to basically make or break your game. +1 Culture per Great Works is considerably bad when there are other sources of culture like Tradition's +2 Culture per Bath, Monument, etc that are better than this ideological tenet. Just make Creative Expression grant a +50% Golden Age Length and it's perfectly a good tenet.

For Capitalism, a free Great Merchant seems good.

 

[Grabbl]

+1 for the free Great Merchant from Capitalism

 

[ElliotS]

I'd like to add that Volunteer Army should give mercenaries once they're available imo.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I've already said some things about Freedom T1s in the other thread, so I will only shortly speak about them. Someone should make an Order thread probably, I made Autocracy's already.


Avant Garde-
C+ - almost okay, but there's nothing better.

Covert Action-
C+ - the best of the spy tenets probably.

Creative Expression-
F - awful.

Economic Union-
F. Even Portugal/Ottomans/Morocco won't care at this point, but for them it'd be a C I guess.

Transnationalism - ? I never take Franchise stuff

Universal Healthcare-
A+ - strongest t1 tenet of all ideologies I think.

T2.

Arsenal of Democracy
A - strong

Capitalism-
F - why do you need happiness on a tall empire? It's not even a big amount. Outright worse than Suffrage. Needs more, something like +Free Great Merchant and maybe something else.

Civil Society-
A- - pretty good, later eras specialists cost 4-5 food each iirc so it makes them more affordable. It's not as strong as Order's +5 of all yields per city, but it holds its own.

New Deal-
C - not that bad, but it should probably incorporate national wonders. +4 Culture each, for instance. It could become overwhelming for really tall empires then, though.

Their Finest Hour- Combat strength of cities increases by 33%. Can build B52 bombers
A - happiness, bombers.

Universal Suffrage-
C - a bit poor. It's only a 50% GA increase and some small happiness. Way better than capitalism though.

T3s - all great.

 

[CrazyG]

I wonder if the best approach would be for a few t1 and t2 tenets to switch locations. We could move Universal Healthcare and Urbanization to tier 2, and move capitalism and new deal to tier 1. This would better align the power levels