Finally something to agree with Chirac about

[Marla_Singer]

Chirac is promoting Athiesm in public schools, which is as bad as promoting Christianity in public schools.

Is it impossible to you to believe in God and to not wear the veil ? We're talking about small kids here ! I don't see where atheism is promoted in here ! People are the same believers, there's no promotion of anything except the refusal of fundamentalism.

Really, I don't see where people can find any promotion of atheism in here. I'm jew, I believe in God, I've been raised in French public school, I've never felt any pressures on me to make me think God doesn't exist or anything else !! That sounds actually as a great shock to me to imagine such a thing... and to be honnest, I consider the french public school doesn't deserve such an insult.

I remember when I was at the University in my first year. A girl was wearing a black niqab (a kind of black ghost suit for people who doesn't know the word). I have really no opposition about it since she was over 18 and then we can consider her choice to be done freely. However, I must admit I felt sorry for her. She was always alone... when we wanted to talk with her, she was scared and just flee...

Of course everyone must remain free to wear a niqab and it would inadmissible to ban it. Actually this would be totally against the freedom of religions. However, the decision of wearing such a dress must be taken by a responsible person, and I can't consider children to be enough responsible to do so inside public school. We are not enough responsible to vote or to drink alcohol as a kid. I consider that kind of choice to be the same.

 

[Speedo]

When you've found out, please tell me. I support a ban in public schools, but in private business this is plain nonsense

It will be interesting to see where this leads. Irregardless of the arguments about the govt stuff, it seems to me that allowing the ban in private businesses is plain and simple religious discrimination. But then most European countries don't have religious freedom protected constitutionally, IIRC.

 

[Johann MacLeod]

Originally posted by Zarn
I am completely against this. It is just another way to attack religous people. It isn't promoting secularism, but it promotes Atheism. Atheism is not the state religion of France...

yes because as you know this law forces you the spit on a cross every day when you come to school

 

[cgannon64]

I have an idea! Lets make society as homogenous as possible! Lets pretend that religion doesn't exist! If we all try really hard, maybe it won't!

A needless law that does nothing except eliminate the last scraps of religious expression public school kids have...

 

[MrPresident]

Some Muslims believe that if women do not wear the veil they are sinning. So this ruling effectively condemns such people to hell (in their eyes). Also can someone explain to me how exactly a girl wearing a veil in school is state promption of religion? I could understand if it was a teacher and the children were young. But this is about school children and school children of all ages. How does a girl wearing a veil make other children want to join a different religion? Surely if it does anything, it enlightens people to the existence of Islam.

 

[Marla_Singer]

A needless law that does nothing except eliminate the last scraps of religious expression public school kids have...

The law eliminates nothing. It has always worked this way in France. Honnestly, there's nothing new in here except that it was before schools principals' responsibility and it's now directy the country's responsibility. Really, don't believe that that's it, France is hating God !

Also can someone explain to me how exactly a girl wearing a veil in school is state promption of religion? I could understand if it was a teacher and the children were young. But this is about school children and school children of all ages. How does a girl wearing a veil make other children want to join a different religion? Surely if it does anything, it enlightens people to the existence of Islam.

I've already answered to that in the first thread talking about it. The risk isn't really to convert other people to Islam. The risk is actually to make muslim girls who don't wear the veil feel guilty about it... and then, to convince them they should wear it.

According to a recent study, in most of schools where a girl wearing the veil has been temporarily dismissed, no girls wear it afterwards. According to an anonymous poll made in some of those schools, the large majority of muslim girls don't feel the need to wear the veil at school.

Once there's a first girl who wear it and no one cared, then a second one will very soon start to wear it and at the end an average of 70% of the muslim girls in these schools wear the veil. Only few public schools in France have accepted the veil (less than 10). This poll only cared about the students who were already in the school before the acceptance of the veil (actually 97% of the students). The second result of that studies was the girls with or without the veil were forming groups after that. Muslim girls without the veil had still non-muslim girl friends when muslim girls with the veil were only together.

The thing is simple, if everyone accepts the rule that the veil is not allowed inside school, then we're promoting the mix between people and most of people forget really fast that the veil isn't allowed. When you accept the veil inside school, the girls who don't wear it are pressured to do so and the other girls with the veil make them feel as if they were sinning. Moreover, the development of the veil is dividing students according to their religion.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

A tangential question: is it legal [in the USA or in Europe] to ritually slaughter a bull and offer its remains to Jehova?

Perhaps you need a license?

[This is entirely serious btw...]

 

[Marla_Singer]

A tangential question: is it legal [in the USA or in Europe] to ritually slaughter a bull and offer its remains to Jehova?

What I know in France is that at the Aïd al-Kabbir it's tolerated to ritually slaughter a sheep. However, I think it must be done in a specified place guaranteeing sanitation of the operation. Generally speaking, it's made in Halal butcher's shops. In general life, I think some are still doing it at home without being prosecuted even if I've never seen any shop selling living sheeps...

 

[Drewcifer]

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
A tangential question: is it legal [in the USA or in Europe] to ritually slaughter a bull and offer its remains to Jehova?

Perhaps you need a license?

[This is entirely serious btw...]

It is legal in the US as well. The local Hmong slaughter cows ritually but the place where they do it required a zoning variance to open.

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Yago
Me finding this good.

Separation of church and state is one of the fundaments any democracy is based on.

It is not hte state the one that is forbiden to display religious symbols, it is the citizens!

Also, it is the scarf a religious symbol? Could it be considered more like a cultural thing?

 

[EzInKy]

Originally posted by Jorge


It is not the state that is forbidden to display religious symbols, it is the citizens!

EDIT: Important point quoted above so spelling corrected in quoted text.

You hit the nail on the head, Jorge. With this law France is depriving its citizens of their rights of free expression. It's one thing to have limits, it's a completely different thing to ban.

 

[Akka]

Funny. Seems like the copy-and-past of a previous thread.

Well, I'm happy with this enforcement of an already existing and already applied principle.

As for the "extend to private business as well", I think there is a misunderstanding. As I read it, it's not that the ban will be extended to private sphere, it's that "Companies should also be free to ban the wearing of head scarves and other religious signs for reasons of safety or customer relations, Chirac said.".
It's more a permission for companies to ask their employees to have secular clothing.


Oh, and I'm really tired with people not able to distinguish between a restriction of religion to the private sphere, and the active persecution of religion. Really tired.

Some Muslims believe that if women do not wear the veil they are sinning. So this ruling effectively condemns such people to hell (in their eyes).

I'm a Norse believer. If I don't die with a sword in my hand during a fight, I'm not going to Valhalla. And still, I'm forbidden to carry a sword ! It's persecution !

 

[Panda]

I find the proposal good and hope an equal law will eventually be passed here as well.

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
A tangential question: is it legal [in the USA or in Europe] to ritually slaughter a bull and offer its remains to Jehova?

Perhaps you need a license?

[This is entirely serious btw...]

AFAIK, most EU countries allow ritual slaughters (even though they violate animal cruelty laws). I imagine (but am not sure) some sort of a license is required, if for no other reason than hygiene.

 

[EzInKy]

Originally posted by Akka

I'm a Norse believer. If I don't die with a sword in my hand during a fight, I'm not going to Valhalla. And still, I'm forbidden to carry a sword ! It's persecution !

Wear a sword shaped ring, or better yet, just don't fight B-)

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by EzInKy

Wear a sword shaped ring, or better yet, just don't fight B-)

What ? You mean that I have to respect laws even if they aren't adapted to my own private religious beliefs ?
That's outrage ! The state is trying to prevent me from believing in what I want ! I am effectively condemned to hell by an atheist society that doesn't allow me to do what my religion requires !

 

[Adebisi]

I am definitly against it, it is a serious infringment on the freedom of religion in France.

Burkas cannot be allowed for practical reasons however, the teachers need to know the identity of their students.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Burkas cannot be allowed for practical reasons however, the teachers need to know the identity of their students.

What ? Adebisi ! To not let the little girls wear burqas is a serious infringment of the freedom of religion in Finland ! I don't understand at all your post... Are you hypocritical ?

 

[Adebisi]

Originally posted by Marla_Singer
What ? Adebisi ! To not let the little girls wear burqas is a serious infringment of the freedom of religion in Finland ! I don't understand at all your post... Are you hypocritical ?

Constantly wearing a Burka can of course not be allowed in such situations were the teacher needs to know the identity of the students. It is also inhumane to force a child to wear a burka.

Banning headscrafs, kippas and crosses has no other point than limiting our freedom of religion however.

 

[MrPresident]

Originally posted by Akka
I'm a Norse believer. If I don't die with a sword in my hand during a fight, I'm not going to Valhalla. And still, I'm forbidden to carry a sword ! It's persecution !

Oh, come on! A serious discussion about has no place for such petty debating techniques. Islam is a world religion practised by millions of people round the world, Norse religion (or whatever it is called) is not. It is a serious point that many believe that if the women do not wear the veil they are committing sin, this includes many women. How can you justify sending them to hell (for that is what they believe) in the vain pursue of banishing religion from anything but places of worship? You may not believe in Islam but they do. What right do you have to force your beliefs on them?

Originally posted by Akka
Oh, and I'm really tired with people not able to distinguish between a restriction of religion to the private sphere, and the active persecution of religion. Really tired.

Wearing a veil is the private sphere? Since when does the power of the State extend to the contents of someone's wardrobe? I could understand if the article of clothing in question was offensive, such as a political statement (i.e. I hate Bush), but the veil is purely a religious symbol. It is simply saying that the child in question is a Muslim. What is wrong with that? How is that bringing down the State? How is that threatening the secularism of France? Remember these are children, not teachers. They are not state employees. They do not represent the state. They are citizens expressing a religious opinion, that is all.

Originally posted by Marla_Singer
The risk is actually to make muslim girls who don't wear the veil feel guilty about it

Well, how kind of you. It's nice to know the state is looking out for poor defenceless Muslim women forced to wear the veil against their will. It does seem strange though that the state limits itself to just Muslim women and the veil. Why not bring in a law forbidding the wearing of ugly sweater brought by Grandmothers as Christmas presents? Why not bring in a law forbidding mothers from buying children shoes three times too large in the bizarre impression they will somehow grow into them? Why not ban children from wearing shorts in cold weather? Why not ban novelty ties? Why just the veil?

 

[Akka]

Originally posted by MrPresident
Oh, come on! A serious discussion about has no place for such petty debating techniques. Islam is a world religion practised by millions of people round the world, Norse religion (or whatever it is called) is not.

As I see, your only argument is in number, then. Well, if numbers are what count, then there is more seculars than Muslims in France, hence it's perfectly agreeable to ban the veil.

My argument, though, is not in numbers. It's simply that religions are personnal, and that the society should NOT be shaped to fit them. There is laws, and if your religion goes against these laws, well, tough luck.

All the rest has already been treated in the previous thread, and frankly I'm tired to repeating myself. Dig it if you want your answers. Or ask Kinniken, he's much more patient, diplomatic and dedicaced than I am.