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Financial & Philosophical, what?!!!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by BruceLeeee, Dec 28, 2005.

  1. BruceLeeee

    BruceLeeee Chieftain

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    Correct me if I'm wrong. Terrain improvement needs a balance between farms and cottages. Cottages benefit from financial. Farms gets specialists and more GP points. My GP capital usually has lots of farms and 28 min population. It gets around 1000 beaker per turn end game from specialists and merged GP. Financial game (cottage spam) for me usually has weaker super science city but stronger multiple cities.
    Why would you want both traits at the same time (Elizabeth)? I tried her and it feels like she just have 1 trait.
     
  2. cleverhandle

    cleverhandle King

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    Seems like you already answered your question. You concentrate your GPP in one city with National Epic and work that with farms to get the most out of philosophical (though half-price Universities are also nice for everyone). Everywhere else, you cottage. Seems like the best of both worlds to me.
     
  3. xgamer

    xgamer Chieftain

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    it's a very good combo for boosting your science
     
  4. Crimso

    Crimso ...aaaaaagh!

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    Yup, if you're playing financial, you need at least four acadamies (among other things) to get the most out of it.
     
  5. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    Just four? Going to need more of those on the tuffer levels...
     
  6. BruceLeeee

    BruceLeeee Chieftain

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    Academies, exactly my point. If I merge Great scientist with capital, I get 9 * 3.5 = 31.5 beakers. If I make academy, I get 30-40 beakers in my financial cities maybe more. I either get a financial benefit or philosophical, but rarely both.
    Philosophical also requires a limited expansion but get atleast 3 out of the four early wonders (stonehenge, pyramid, oracle, partheon). I can get 3 atleast in emperor by chop rushing in three cities at once. That means I don't expand nearly as much as financial game. These two traits are just too incompatible. Getting another supplemental trait instead is much better. Organized for massive expansion or expansive for monarch or above health problem.
     
  7. Shillen

    Shillen Deity

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    I've never even built 3 academies in one game before. Saying you need more than 4 is a bit over the top...
     
  8. alexti2

    alexti2 Prince

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    This combo is better suited for water maps. You build farms on grasslands and work coast tiles (for 3 commerce). This gives you pretty good start and then you need to consolidate on it, because later on you lose commercial advantage over those who built cottages instead of farms.
     
  9. GenericKen

    GenericKen Not at all suspicious

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    Financial + 1/2 cost universities makes for some mad research, especially in costal cities with relatively weak shield production. Alternatively, you can focus on GP to supplement your income/research. Additionally, Golden Ages make ocean tiles give you 3 commerce.

    Liz is a pretty fairly synergetic leader. There are a lot of other leaders who make a whole lot less sense than she does.
     
  10. BruceLeeee

    BruceLeeee Chieftain

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    University is a great building to half cost, but that's got to be the worst reason to pick I've ever heard.

    So it comes down to this, Liz is a good leader in water maps, only cause you can't choose what you put on water tiles. Otherwise, no one has argued against the following tradeoffs that seriously hurt synergy of Liz.
    cottage vs farm
    expansion vs early wonders
    In tougher difficulties, you do have to make these tough choices. I see no way you can get the best out of both traits.
     
  11. DrLime

    DrLime Chieftain

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    I find Liz to be a solid leader even on maps without a lot of water- if you micromanage your cities properly. I always make sure that my GP capital is surrounded by farms, and just by sheer probability there's always a few hills or tiles with decent hammer production so if you focus entirely on food and just chop rush all the wonders/improvements you want to build there, by the time you can build Red Coats you'll have a massive population that can be supported even working the hills/hammer tiles, plus hammers from specialists/merged GPs. You can just pump out Red Coats, which compared to Cav. and Grenadiers availible to other civs during the same time period, dominate.
     
  12. Seven05

    Seven05 Warmonger

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    I guess by that argument you shouldn't play an agressive leader unless you're at war for the entire game as every turn out of war is a turn that you're wasting your abilities.

    It's obvious that you don't like the combination so I don't see how it would be possible for anybody to convince you otherwise. But do you seriously see no advantage to the combination? If not you either don't let your cottages grow to hamlets or better or you don't have any cities "producing" great people. Or do you just not think that you can do both in the same game? Imagine building a cottage on a riverside, with the financial trait that tile will produce 3 commerce alone. Now, imagine having a national epic in every city for free, you can even have one city with two of them. It's a potent combination but like every other combination of traits it works with some strategies and not with others. The good news is that if you don't like it or it doesn't work for you nobody will force you to use her :)
     
  13. BruceLeeee

    BruceLeeee Chieftain

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    How the freak are you arriving at this conclusion? I'm saying all traits calls for a different playing style. Financial playing style and philosophical are competing. If you are maximizing one, you are only getting something like half effectiveness from the other. If you like redcoats alot or think these two traits are more than double the strength of other traits, Liz would be a great choice.
    No you can't have both a farm and a cottage on the same tile. That is equivalent to the tradeoff of .5-1 specialist and 5-8 commerce. No you can't have a nice big financial expansion when you are racing wonders against emperor AIs. You need 3 cities to chop rush pyramid, partheon, and oracle/stonehenge. Missing pyramid means you failed at GP strategy. Missing partheon means 2-3 less GP. Then 2 cities building military. Well short of what a solid financial game needs.
     
  14. Orca

    Orca Warlord

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    While i see some sense in your point i disagree on this being useless. Cottages are pretty weak in non river environments. So you can use your phil advantage there. Furthermore the phil bonus applies for wonders too which doesnt interfere that much with financial trait. I think if you have stone or marble you want to build almost all wonders which benefit in production time therefrom.
     
  15. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    The GP strategy is subject to diminishing returns. Every city you put into GP mode increases the cost of getting more GPs.

    The bonuses also give diminishing returns. Running Pacifism gives double GP production to most civs, but only +50% GP production to Philosophical civs. If you have +300% GP production in your capital, the Parthenon is a waste of shields.

    So an empire-wide GP strategy is silly, because most towns won't get any. That is where Financial comes in.
     
  16. bobko

    bobko Chieftain

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    You only need ONE GP farm to get full advantage of Philosophical. ALL other cities can take advantage of Financial, in fact it is a waste to invest in any GP production in those cities. Do you really need the GP farm to have any cottage at all to say that the combo is not a waste?
     
  17. Tigerclaw

    Tigerclaw Chieftain

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    Oh my...:blush:



    Financial works well for me in a bigger empire, with lots of sprawling cities on flat terrain. Have yet to test Philosophical, but so far find it much more effective to just try to get Great People in one city...
     
  18. Riggler

    Riggler Chieftain

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    I'm playing a standard continents game on noble now with Liz and +1 AI from the standard for this size map.

    I picked LIz just for the heck of it.

    I see a lot of people on here talk about specializing cities. I've yet to do that to the extreme I've seen discussed. That's not to say I don't do it to a smaller extint.

    I have used Liz's financial trait pretty well. I could have probably better maximized her philosophical trait, yet I still feel like I've gotten a decent amount of GP.

    This is the way I see it. You don't have to maximize traits to the extreme for them to be effective. If you are not doing the extreme maximizing of philosophical for whatever reason, you are still going to be benefiting from more great people than you would without it. And the same goes for vice versa.

    This game with Liz has been relatively easy. I was looking for a harder game and thought hte addition of another AI might provide that. Next game I'll be going up to Prince. I will certainly not be playing my first game as Liz on a higher difficulty as I missed probably four wonders by a total of 10 turns. I will likely look to a civ with Industrious.
     
  19. obsolete

    obsolete Deity

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    When I'm on deity, I like to keep a tech lead. How do you do it with just two or less???
     
  20. snipafist

    snipafist Prince

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    I find the two traits work well together. Financial for extra banks for a flaggering economy, and Philosophical for those wonderfully cheap universities. All you really need is one or two great person cities, and all the rest are still quite capable of producing a lot of commerce. If your strategy for financial is to spam a lot of cottages and for philosophical to spam a lot of farms, then Elizabeth isn't for you. Then again, if that's all you do, then I don't really think playing Civ IV and enjoying it for more than a month is for you either. Elizabeth rewards city customization more than any other leader.
     

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