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Financial & Philosophical, what?!!!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by BruceLeeee, Dec 28, 2005.

  1. BruceLeeee

    BruceLeeee Chieftain

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    One further point, philosophical works best with representation, beaucracy, caste system, pacifism, environmentalism (helps when your capital got 30 pop). Financial game prefers universal suffrage, free speech, emancipation, state property, free religion. Both have a good deal of flexibility of course.
    I am beginning to see a good strategy with Liz. Go philosophical until mid game. Get 15 GPs fast. Switch to financial improvements and civics once diminishing returns get too much.
    I'm still not convinced one philosophical city and rest financial works well, cause when I play purely financial, the empire is much more commercially impressive than what my Liz game is capable of. Once I try to improve Liz financial game, the GP city drops a good 400 beakers less than my super 1000 beakers Peter city.
     
  2. BruceLeeee

    BruceLeeee Chieftain

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    To defend my fetish with building all four wonders even on emperor game, getting a few GP very early helps enormously. I usually have 2 great prophets (stonehenge, oracle) and 1 great engineer (pyramid) merged with capital before I hit literature. My capital gets a very high early production to build those middle wonders hanging garden, norta dame, great library, national epic fast enough to keep up with tech pace.
    Parthenon and pacifism gives the same bonus philosophical or not, and is subject to the same diminishing returns. When you already have a +100% bonus, not to get more bonuses to take advantage of your trait is dumb. Pacifism gives +100% bonus NO MATTER the trait. Factor in the diminishing return, you get +50% more GPs given a time period NO MATTER the trait. Besides, if you don't build it, AI will. On higher difficulties, they already got automatic +100-200% bonuses. You do not want to give them more bonuses.
     
  3. Aeek

    Aeek Chieftain

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    Dec 2, 2005
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    I like building the pyramids and then driving for banking. Representation/Vassalage/CasteSystem/Merchantilsm/Organised Religion really plays into Liz(a fluke discovery) and can be achieved reaonably early.
    I also like coasts so don't cottage much, which again plays into Liz.
     
  4. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    The bonuses are additive, not multiplicative.

    For example, suppose you have a city making 10GPP per turn.

    Code:
    Bonus  GPP
    -----  ---
    +0%    10
    +100%  20
    +200%  30
    +300%  40
    +350%  45
    Going from +100 to +200 is an increase of (30-20)/20 = 50%.
    Going from +300 to +350 is an increase of (45-40)/40 = 12.5%
     
  5. iwas

    iwas Chieftain

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    The return doesn't diminish, you just get less 'real' benefit from each successive benefit you get. Thats the nature of additive bonuses.
     
  6. BruceLeeee

    BruceLeeee Chieftain

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    Umm, +300 to +350% is an increase of 5 = 50% of 10 (base GPP). Are you arguing for me or against me? I'm saying the 5 increase is 50% from base no matter you are at 300% or 0% currently.
    I think a common misconception is that GPP does not have diminishing return. The return does not come with increasing GPP but with time. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere. During the entire game, an additional 10 GPP gets you 5 more GPs no matter you are adding onto 150 GPP per turn or 0 GPP.
     
  7. Dog of Justice

    Dog of Justice Chieftain

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    The return does not come with increasing GPP but with time. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere. During the entire game, an additional 10 GPP gets you 5 more GPs no matter you are adding onto 150 GPP per turn or 0 GPP.

    Well, there's your big misconception -- this is simply wrong. The cost of your next GP is dependent on nothing but the number of GP you've generated so far. On Normal speed, it goes 100, 200, 300, ..., 1000, 1200, 1400, ..., 3000, 3300, 3600, ..., 6000, 6400, etc.

    Anyway, as for the main thread topic, the way to optimize Liz is to have a very good non-capital city as a GP farm/primary wonder builder. (Due to the Bureaucracy commerce bonus being multiplicative, you really want to specialize your capital as a heavy commerce city. If your original capital site isn't suited for that, consider moving your Palace at some point.)
     
  8. Marcus Cicero

    Marcus Cicero For I am "Thursday!"

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    Location:
    Left of the next battle.
    This is one of the greatest things about Civ. I don't don't give a rats buttox about any of this when I play, and I have a blast, just playing a bit at a time. You guys are focused and you calculate every detail, planning your rise to power and you guys have a blast doing it.

    Two completely different ways of playing, both have loads of fun playing times.
     
  9. cartmans dad

    cartmans dad Chieftain

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    late in the game when you have lots of 1/2 price banks, and 1/2 price universities, and double the great people with phil. ontop of double the great people with pacifisim. It winds up 4 or less turns per tech for the later eras of the game.

    great science combo and my favorite leader to play with
     
  10. Bezhukov

    Bezhukov Deity

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    Don't discount the cheap Unis. Managing a few full cost Universities is no problem in your big production cities, but they only give you +25% sci. The big benefit of cheap Unis is the ability to build them quickly in lower production cities, allowing Oxford to be built in your GP farm.

    Oxford gives +100% sci, but just as importantly, allows three more scientists to go to work there without Caste System (you want Slavery/Emancipation for that civic). All those scientists means more science super specialists (and thus more academies) and less prophets. This is a good example of trait symmetry.
     
  11. CivCorpse

    CivCorpse Supreme Overlord of All

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    Are you %100 sure about this? I think I have played liz and had %100 from both
     
  12. puglover

    puglover Disturber of Worldviews

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    Elizabeth of the English is my favorite civ for just that balance of cottages and farms.
     
  13. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    He's referring to the bonus you get above and beyond your current rate. So if you're a normal civ your GP rate goes up from 100% to 200% with pacifism, doubling your output. With a philosophical civ it only goes up from 200% to 300%, improving your GP rate by 50% (compared to running another civic).
     
  14. Taelis

    Taelis Warlord

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    Another way to think about it is turns till your next great person.

    For example, if you need 300 gpps for your next gp, and get 15 base gpps/turn, a normal civ with no bonuses needs 20 turns to generate the next gp. A philosophical civ only needs 10 turns.

    With a 100% bonus from NE or pacifism, the normal civ gets the gp 10 turns sooner.

    But the 100% bonus only helps the philosophical civ get the great person 3 turns sooner.

    I'd call that a diminishing return. (These ratios hold for all cases, BTW.)
     

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