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Finding my Religion

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by Victoria, Dec 3, 2016.

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  1. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I have not played much religion but as GOTM3 is here with religion and there seems a fair amount of questions I guess there should be a guide?
    Just started looking at the parameters below which tell me a lot and staring to play some games but if anyone knows some good info then plase post it here
    Or if you are already making a guide I will very gladly stop as guides are a bit of a pain to make.

    For initial Religion
    RELIGION_INITIAL_BELIEFS=2
    RELIGION_PANTHEON_MIN_FAITH=25

    For City Spread
    RELIGION_SPREAD_ADJACENT_CITY_DISTANCE=10
    RELIGION_SPREAD_ADJACENT_PER_TURN_PRESSURE=1
    RELIGION_SPREAD_ATHEISM_PRESSURE_PER_POP=50
    RELIGION_SPREAD_HOLY_CITY_PRESSURE_MULTIPLIER=4
    RELIGION_SPREAD_HOLY_CITY_PRESSURE_PER_POP=200
    RELIGION_SPREAD_HOLY_SITE_PRESSURE_MULTIPLIER=2

    For combat
    RELIGION_SPREAD_RANGE_COMBAT_VICTORY=6
    RELIGION_SPREAD_RANGE_UNIT_CAPTURE=6
    RELIGION_SPREAD_UNIT_CAPTURE = 125
    RELIGION_HEALING_MULTIPLIER=3
    RELIGION_SPREAD_COMBAT_VICTORY=250

    Either spread or combat
    RELIGION_SPREAD_STRENGTH_MULTIPLIER=200
     
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  2. oov

    oov Chieftain

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    Very interested in this. Here's what I know:

    1. From my experience passive spread is too small to make much difference. Missionaries are good to convert small (about size 3) atheist cities.
    2. All of your cities with holy sites convert to your religion as soon as it's found. Therefore you may want to wait before founding your religion until AFTER you get all your holy sites up. Also, it's not worth trying to convert a civ who is about to found either.
    3. The proselytizer upgrade on apostles is the best way to convert enemy holy cities and once they are converted the AI is basically stuck ( 1 charge can convert a holy city)
    4. Yerevan (city state) is basically a game winner as it lets you choose proselytizer every time.
    5. Fastest way to found a religion is by chopping into holy site projects.
     
  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Fantastic, good stuff. Any idea how the useless passive spread works?
    Does it get halved with enlightenment?

    I am guessing if you have 3 atheists in a 3 pop city you will need 150 religion to convert it and if you have a city with 10 squares it would exert 1 pressure cumulative per turn and if it had a holy site 2 so in essence rubbish.
    Maybe having temples and such like add addition pressure which in turn multiplies up. So a holy city with everything built could exert 16 pressure?.... Prob all need checking

    In the religion screen you can tell holy city by a double wave coming out of the circle
    The outside of the circle indicates what religions have how much pressure and maybe some idea of how strong. Also shows how many converts of each religion.

    Info from thread https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/spreading-religion.606621/
    It may be 100 points to convert 1 atheist... more testing to verify I guess.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
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  4. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

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    Fantastic! Thank you!

    Anyone else experienced with the religious game have a different take or additional thoughts? Any opinions on whether to enhance ones religion? Any of the enhancer beliefs worth burning an apostle?

    And thanks for starting to dig into the details, Victoria! I came here looking for something like this.

    Questions on mechanics: It appears that having half the population of a city be one religion makes the city of that religion (e.g., 3 of 6 are Buddhist, the city is Buddhist, unless the other the other three are all of the same different religion). But for a Civ to be considered converted, more than half have to be of one religion. So a six city civ needs four cities to be Buddhist to be considered Buddhist. Is this correct?

    Also, the size of the cities doesn't seem to matter. A three city civ with a size 9 Buddhist city and two size 1 Orthodox cities would be considered Orthodox, right? Thanks!
     
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  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I think half is half whatever the size... but if you are only just half and another holy city is near by eventual pressure would likely turn it back. That is what we are here for... getting some idea how long and how it can be affected. There is no point in using a trade route if it does not help.
    In my day job I work on big business systems proving why they perform badly so my mind is very Empirical. We can assume and throw the ideas out there but try and not use the word does until we know for sure.

    Anyone got any idea if the combat values for apostles match the normal combat formula from @Hans Lemurson in thread https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...he-combat-formula.606147/page-2#post-14582231

    I think its the pressure stuff that's going to be harder to get right so am going to concentrate on that tonight if I get a chance.

    The Game of the Month 3 (GOTM3) is a religious challenge I am enjoying reading the strategies of so if you need some good tips or just want some good stories

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ6-6otm-number-03-after-actions-report.606440/
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
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  6. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Correct on both counts.
     
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  7. WillowBrook

    WillowBrook Lurker

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  8. greygamer

    greygamer Feudal Lord

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    Thank you Victoria for starting this thread and digging into the xml files. I don't understand them but hopefully someone can educate me ;)
    I expect a nerf to Yerevan at some point, it is too op.

    I din't know that ...good tip :goodjob:
    Also needs a nerf and is even more op if you get extra charges from a second promotion
    qft
    You don't need to chop holy site projects in my experience (Deity starts about 80% success rate)
     
  9. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    @Victoria, thanks for the work you're doing here as well as your threads explaining tourism. I didn't have anything to contribute to the tourism theads but they're extremely helpful. I'm interested to see how a spread is different depending on whether it's an atheist city or already has a religion. Anecodtally it seems to be harder if they already have a religion. It would also be good to know how many conversion charges it takes to convert 1 pop. My religious games were pre-patch but I remember needing a half dozen or more missionaries (with an extra conversion from mosques) to convert a size 12 city. Hopefully it isn't quite so tedious now though.
     
  10. Hans Lemurson

    Hans Lemurson Prince

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  11. oov

    oov Chieftain

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    No, I've tried to figure it out mathematically and I just can't get it to work out. You can expect to only get 1 or 2 passive followers in a nearby city. Not enough to actually "flip" cities efficiently. The majority of followers will have to be converted actively with missionaries / apostles. The initial spread of a missionary (200) will convert an atheist city to 3 followers (and about 1/3 overflow). Math anyone? Each spread after that only nets 1 more follower (and a much smaller overflow) up until population 6. Going from 6 followers to 7 and onward requires 2 charges. The apostles do about the same (without the upgrades).

    Basically in my games I expect 1 charge to convert just 1 citizen. The upgrades on the apostles really makes the difference.

    Enlightenment is a tourism thing so I don't think any pressure if affected. I don't think there's any added pressure from buildings either.
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Ok, so I have a good scenario... Not done any figures on it yet but first run through shows towns converting a single pop in about 15 turns with about 3 pressure cities involved. The arrows on the outside of the religious circle are not as naff as I thought, they seem to change look depending on the amount of pressure or cities. I need to double check my own cities which originally converted. They seem to have slowly converted more. Kids off the computer soon so will have more time. It looks to me like pressure is similar in speed to civ5 but with souped up apostles and missionaries the pressure is watered down in power but still a valid contributer.
    Norway is next to me and got a religion first but i have 1 pop in his holy city converted to me and it is his last bastion of holiness. He is a touch cross with me but I have currently bribed him to neutral so it will be nice to see how his religious pop changes
     
  13. oov

    oov Chieftain

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    No I do not believe it is similar to civ 5. The first pop maybe... but after that it is harder and harder to convert. I'm thinking the first pop requires just 50 passive spread, then the next needs 100, then the next needs 150. That's what I think RELIGION_SPREAD_ATHEISM_PRESSURE_PER_POP=50 is talking about. Civ 5 was linear.

    Firaxis doesn't want passive spread to be too easy I guess. I look forward to what you find.
     
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  14. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    I haven't played around with religion at all, much to learn from this thread.

    How does the religious system handle growth? If a pop 6 city is 3/6 Buddhist and grows, will the new pop be Buddhist to make it 4/7? How about if it's 3/7 and grows, would the new pop be atheist to make it 3/8?
     
  15. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    In civ v, the # followers was derived from the total pressure, it wasn't a value on its own.

    Civ 6 seems like it is probably the same

    So followers of A = population * lifetime pressure of religion A / (total lifetime pressure of all religions)
    (Atheism counts as a religion here)

    The lifetime pressure included
    1-missionary spread
    2-per turn pressure from other cities
    3-per turn pressure in the holy city
    4-founding pressure
    5-pop growth pressure (to whichever religion is dominant..including 'atheism')

    Civ 6 has added combat, and it seems like it may have removed #3

    #5 seems to fit....add 50 pressure everytime there is growth.
    The question is...is that 50 pressure always added to atheism or to whatever the dominant religion is.

    The 200 holy city pressure per pop is probably #4 ...the lump sum of pressure you get in the holy city on founding the religion (although it probably applies to all cities with a holy site on founding)

    I think the arrows may reflect how pressure is changing the number of followers rather than reflecting the per turn pressure itself
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2016
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  16. DiffSarit

    DiffSarit Chieftain

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    I just have a Religion Victory on King difficulty (playing as China).

    A few things that I have learn are below:
    - I think a new pop is born as Atheist because I have seen a 4 pop city that was already converted to my religion (2 followers of my religion, 1 followers of another religion, and 1 Atheist) reverse back to Neutral when a new pop is born. Everything is the same, but with 1 more Atheist which make my religion have 2 followers out of 5 pop, losing the converted city status.

    - I think Scripture enhancement is worth to spend an apostle for. It add 25% pressure initially and increase to 50% after you research Printing. It might not flip a new city to your religion on its own, but it make keeping a city to stay with your religion much easier, your benefit that base on the number of followers (Tithe, etc.) is stronger, and make spreading your religion to new teritories easier. With Scripture, your cities will have higher percentage of your followers (compare with without it) because the passive pressure can keep up with population growth easily (so less Atheist) and in case of big city, it will keep converting the remainning Atheists (after initial conversion) into your followers with ease (assuming that you have a group of 3-5 cities that follows your religion). I also believe that a follower of religion is harder to convert than Atheist. So other religions will have a hard time converting your cities to their ways. Lastly, if you spreading into a new teritory that already has a well established religion, you can sustain your initial spreading if you can convert just 4-5 cities, instead of 6-8 cities, to keep the pressure strong enough that cities on the fringe won't flip back to the established religion from the passive pressure from surrounding cities.

    - Proselytizer is indeed OP, but it can't convert a big city (12+ pops, maybe less) with just one charge. It will eliminate the pressence of all other religions in the city though, so remaining pop are just Atheist which is easier to convert by following up with missionaries.

    - Missionary is not effective in spreading religion to a city with 8+ pop that already follow a religion. Apostle is worth the higher faith price for this kind of job.

    - If you are aiming for Religious Victory, Mosque worship belief (Missionaries and Apostles +1 Spread Religion charge) can helps a lot, and if you can also get Hagia Sophia wonder, then it should be a piece of cake. ;-)
     
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  17. greygamer

    greygamer Feudal Lord

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    On the subject of Apostles, what is considered the best use for the first one? Evangelize Belief/Launch Inquisition or keeping if they have a powerful promotion (Debater/Proselytizer).

    I usually get a good promotion and then end up missing out on the better beliefs as a result :undecide:

    As an example in my current game I got my first apostle just as 4 AI missionaries descended on my cities. I had Debater available which enabled me to kill all the missionaries.
     
  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I guess you are in Deity or similar. In this case its a bit like the barb rush and a debater is like a slinger. You want that builder but just do not have the time. But then I am still inexperienced in the world of godliness.

    It is a great example but we need to be careful about theorizing. For example in my testing I have seen quite the opposite as the norm. A 6 pop city with 3 atheists and 3 Victorious (my religion) grows to a 7 - 3 ath. 4 vic. However this is in an area near my holy city with many other vic. cities around it. So it is looking like pressure plays a significant role.

    In Civ5 the later it got the less your religion made a difference. Here it seems the opposite, certainly in the middle game the pressure really rises and speeds things up. The 30% further away is a bit of a weird one because testing is showing pressure is 99% likely to be 10 hex max. I had a city 11 and 10 away and the 10 one showed pressure the next turn (shows as vic. people = 0 in the religion lens meaning pressure is beginning. 10 hex city had it , 11 hex city did not) I said it is weird because 30% of 10 just does not gel... unless they cut and pasted from civ 5

    Once again i see the opposite. My missionary goes up to one of my cities and converts it... lets say from 3 atheist, 2 christian 1 vic to become 2 atheist, 1 christian 3 vic. Now all the arrows for vic in the circle go. This indicates I am the majority and will not grow anymore.
    The Christians show a weak arrow (which I believe a this stage indicates a small quantity rather than a small pressure) The christian pressure seems to grow into the atheist space to a degree but my religion no longer grows. If I throw 10 missionary charges at it, and this city has my 2 holy cities around it (Bethlehem) and other converted cities it does not grow vic at all. If I throw 10 inquisitors at it it only converts the Christians to vic. If I throw 10 apostles at it they all convert. That seemed to be the case, I may be wrong and it was late and testing does get boring but based on this and other tests I would say that a missionary converts up to the point you are the majority religion and then is useless.
    I tried desperately to get a city entirely my religion... the only way to do it was to let the atheists get converted by another religion and then use an inquisitor.

    Population size does seem to play a part in the mechanics as does number of atheists. The larger faction in a city tends to get converted before a smaller faction. There is soo much to quadruple check without any figures to go off that it is tricky and going to take some time.
    It does seem like a simple scenario of a single city with a holy district as the only city affecting a target city works something like....

    pressure = ((# of converts in source city) x (Holy site or holy city multiplier) - # of non converts in target city (and I guess - pressure from other cities). This pressure becomes 1 convert at 100.

    its only a guess and needs lots of testing but its a start.

    Edit: just changed a bit as apostles def changed atheists. Only thing I know for sure is distance is not a factor.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2016
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  19. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    If that is true...the 50/pop is always atheist, then the 200/pop for holy cities might include popgrowth And founding. (Ie when a holy city gets a new pop, it gets 200 additional pressure for the holy city religion)

    Also, religion-spread-strength -multiplier of 200 is probably
    Missionary spread=100str*[200/100]=200 spread
    Apostle spread=110str*[200/100]=220 spread
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    So I have been testing pressure from a single city first and trying different distances and source/target sizes. So far just for the first growth from atheist.

    An atheist city of any size at any distance is always converted at the same rate.
    This rate appears to be;

    Base of 3 x convesion factor = per turn value applied
    (1 for normal, 2 for holy site and 4 for holy city)

    1 convert appears when the cumulative value reaches 100.
    Stonehenge nor relics appear to affect this
    In simpler terms at turn 9, 16 and 34.
    The is some very slight variation I am getting with a holy site so will test some more. Zzzzz

    The strategy seems to work best to convert holy sites to your religion first.
    Still lots to do as the second growth then gets more complex
    Atheist cities seem not to apply any pressure either, sort of makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
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