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Finding the Limits of Possibility: A Deity Plus Four Succession Game

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Stories & Tales' started by Prof. Garfield, May 16, 2009.

  1. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Here is the thread for the proposed deity plus four succession game.

    Rules to be discussed:

    Diplomats/Spies. My preference is no restrictions on their use.

    Reputation. My preference is that we can damage it as much as we like.

    Ship Chains. My preference is that we are allowed to use them.

    Caravan Re-Homing. I prefer that this be forbidden.

    Xin Yu's Size 5 city strategy (alternating size 5 cities from regular order to all 5 as Scientists). I prefer that this be forbidden.

    Other Issues:

    Barbarians. Bloody Monk suggested that we only use Raging Hordes for this game, on the grounds that Barbarian Wrath can potentially unbalance play. I’ll play either way, but I would prefer to use Barbarian Wrath.

    Our Civilization. I suggest the Vikings because they have a lot of default city names (I think that only the Romans have more, and that civilization was used a couple games ago).

    I think that is everything.
     
  2. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    I agree with all rules Pr. Garfield mentioned. With the barbarian issue I don't mind which it will be but prefer raging hordes. The color is for me not important but it might be a good thing to have a civ with a lot of city names as the prof mentioned. Rehoming should indeed not be allow and also the airbase trick shouldn't be allowed. Just like the GOTM rules....

    We have to decide the playing order also. So far we have the next players:
    1. Prof. Garfield
    2. Bloody Monk
    3. The Viking
    4. Magic_Gorter
    5. CharlieChuck


    Are there more players who want to play?
    Is there somebody who likes to start??
     
  3. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Prince

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    I agree with the rules, Barb wrath isn't really that much of a problem you just need to bribe and take out the central stack. I'll go with whatever's decided.
     
  4. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    At the moment we seem to have one vote for Barbarian Wrath, two votes for Raging Hordes, and one person who has no preference whatsoever.

    If no one else posts by Monday, I'll start a game at raging hordes.
     
  5. simpeter

    simpeter Lurker

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    Into the breach, dear friends!
     
  6. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    I prefer barbarian wrath.
     
  7. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    I started the game with Barbarian Wrath because, the votes being equal, I decided to go with precedent, and previous deity plus succession games have been played with Barbarian Wrath.



    For moons beyond memory of their stories did the band of shepherds that called themselves Vikings travel in the wilderness from place to place in search of fodder for their many cattle, for this large group of men had many animals and they did quickly eat the vegetation in any land where they stopped for any period of moons.

    It happened that this tribe stopped for several moons near a river to celebrate the death of their Warlord and beheld something wonderful: the grass and plants were not depleted during their stay in the region.

    The New Warlord brought the masters of the greatest herds together and proposed that they stay on the shores of the river permanently and free their women from the hardship of constant travel. The masters agreed, though they proposed that the tribe travel the entire river to find the best spot for a settlement.

    And in the third year after the ascension of the Warlord Canute, the tribe founded a village and called it Trondheim, after their word for "tree."


    (1) 4000 B.C.: Move settlers west.
    (2) 3950: Follow river. Find that the maximum number of cities that can be built on it is 2.
    (3) 3900: Move settlers back down river.
    (4) 3850: Build Trondheim, start settler.
    (5) 3800: Begin Alphabet.
    (6) 3750: …
    (7) 3700: …
    (8) 3650: Rush 2 shields for 4 gold.
    (9) 3600: …
    (10) 3550: We are hopelessly poor. Alphabet, begin Code of Laws.
    (11) 3500: …
    (12) 3450: …
    (13) 3400: …
    (14) 3350: Luxuries to 40% instead of taxes.
    (15) 3300: …


    Notes:

    I suggest we go directly for republic, by this route:

    ……..0………………..1…………………..........2
    Alphabet (0)*…Code of Laws (2)…..Writing (0)
    Off Path………..Literacy (0)………The Republic (1)

    Don’t risk getting any off-path techs until code of laws is finished, but it would be very good to get one while researching writing.

    Trondheim will finish its settler in 5 turns. I suggest it then build a warrior while the settler builds a road on a shield grassland and then builds a city on the available river square, to allow the production of 3 trade (and thus get 2 science).

    Try looking for a hut or two that can be checked during the time writing is being researched.

    I recommend an infinite city sprawl strategy until we get republic in order to minimize losses from corruption and waste. If we have to, we can disband some cities later in the game.

    I think we should play 15 turns for the first round and then 10 thereafter.
     

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  8. Bloody Monk

    Bloody Monk Chieftain

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    Sorry for the delay; this site finds itself incapable of sending email notifications to my ISP but I'll keep a browser tab open in future.

    I have limited experience (and no notes) to fall back on playing D+. Please help me with a few questions...
    --Martial law and Temples have little or no effect on Happiness, right?? Cause faces start out black...?
    --Key action is making a road to boost arrow count, yes??
    --Also, Markets + Lux are a must, true??

    I understand that getting to Republic is very important because of the increased trade arrows. But is this a tad early?? It seems to me it will hamper development of cities because Settlers eat an extra food per turn in Republic. That means we won't be able to build on Plains and have that city make a Settler. The supporting city of the Settler won't grow until it goes away as a new city, but that will have to wait while the Settler Irrigates locally, makes a road (or two if the new site has no trade special).

    I think that's right. If so does the Happiness boost from Republic really outweigh the easier development pace of Monarchy, in the early going??

    I'll play soonest. These questions won't be an issue this turn, I think.

    Monk
     
  9. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Correct. Once we build either a military unit or another city, Trondheim will get its first citizen as a black hat, due to the "number of citizens content" factor ("negative" due to our playing level). The riot factor compounds this problem.

    Either that or build the city with ocean access (which leavs a bit of room for corruption).

    You need luxuries in some form to keep order, either directly or through entertainers. Markets are very nice for promoting celebrations, but are not usually necessary to maintain order (depending on how many non-trade squares the city works).

    I think it does, because it allows size 1 cities to produce shields in preparation for a settler at size 2. A city in monarchy usually can't produce enough trade at size 1 to make 2 luxuries without having a 60% rate. Corruption in Monarchy is also worse than that of republic, further limiting expansion possibilities. In many cases, a size 2 city in Monarchy will need an entertainer regardless of the trade resources around, or require work on 2 ocean squares. A size 2 in republic, by contrast, is much more likely to be able to work a shield heavy square with its second citizen and be able to stockpile some more food while working.

    If we choose monarchy as a stopping point before republic, it will take 1 more tech to get to republic (at least, possibly more) and will put many more restrictions on when we can risk getting off-path techs. The return on that cost would largely be some more food production on the city squares.

    There have been a lot of deity plus games played over the years, which make for good reading. Possibly the best for early strategy options is the D+2 game "The wisdom of life consists in eliminating non-essentials" from a few years back.
     
  10. Bloody Monk

    Bloody Monk Chieftain

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    Thanks for the responses Professor. Since this is new to me, I will follow the sage advise to take direction from one who knows the way. Republic it shall be.

    Fifteen turns, or, We Go a Viking

    3100 Tron makes a Sett, change to Warrior to explore

    3050 Code of Laws --> Writing

    2950 Tron Sett finishes road.

    2850 Tron Sett builds new city, Kaupang and starts Warrior. Change Lux slider to 60%.

    2800 Tron makes Warrior, change b/o to Sett. Warrior moves SW to coast to open the remaining city radius, hoping to find a sea special but, no joy. :( A message appears on a wall announcing "Indians start Pyramids". Confusion ensues as everyone ponders who/where the Indians are and what the heck a Pyramids is. :confused:

    2600 Kau makes Warrior for greater exploration; changes to Sett.

    2450 With two Warrior bands out a Viking we have uncovered a field of grass, nicely studded with shields, which should give us plenty of tightly packed city sites to chose from. Here comes the Sleaze.

    Writing should be done in 3 turns (we need 8 more beakers).

    Monk
     

    Attached Files:

  11. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    I have the game and should be finished playing in 2 or 3 days.
     
  12. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    Not exactly an eventful set of turns - we are horribly primitive. I decided to start alternating Uppsala between riot turns and Elvis turns since it doesn't collect any food with an Elvis. I decided not to pop the hut in the west as we might get an undesireable tech making our science rate even worse than it is. The settler unit is heading for (25,47), a very nice site for a city. There are more nice city sites there but maybe we should focus on building cities near our capital first with the exception of a city at (25,47). The other units are out there exploring. It is possible to increase the science rate slightly by working ocean squares but this slowns down growth as building settlers takes more time.


    2450 BC (0): Things are looking good; nothing changed.

    2400 BC (1): Eastern warrior finds a whale - should be a very nice spot for a future city.

    2350 BC (2): Romans abandon pyramids. Eastern warrior discovers a hut. Slow down the science rate to prevent discovery next turn should we get a tech. This will earn us a whopping 3 gold, a 50% increase. We are getting rich ;-).

    2300 BC (3): Romans start pyramids. Major disappointment: Horsemen from the hut. Would have preferred a tech or $$. Science rate back to 40%.

    2250 BC (4): Writing discovered, start bronze working (=> marketplaces and later caravans).

    2200 BC (5): Our science rate (16 turns) sucks.

    2150 BC (6): The Indians have nearly completed the pyramids. Looks like there are some nice city sites in the west. Temporary production change in our cities since we are about to build settlers.

    2100 BC (7): Delhi (Indian) builds pyramids. The Romans abandon pyramids and start HG. Trondheim builds settlers. BRONZE WORKING FROM HUT!!

    2050 BC (8): Start researching literacy but the science rate is now even worse (17 turns). Heading for the shielded plains rather than the river as doing so takes less time.

    2000 BC (9): Delay popping a hut as we might get an undesireable tech.

    1950 BC (10): Nothing to note.

    1900 BC (11): Carthaginians start HG.

    1850 BC (12): Romans start colossus.

    1800 BC (13): Uppsala founded.

    1750 BC (14): Indians start HG.

    1700 BC (15): Uppsala revolts - I'm alternating it between turns of riots and Elvis turns to enable it to collect some food.


    The short term strategy should simple: ICS-style expansion as quickly as possible and heading straight for republic.
     

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  13. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    I've looked over the save, and I have a couple of recommendations.

    Set the science rate to 60%. This will give us science from Uppsala, and if Kaupang is set to work the ocean square, it will maintain order while producing 2 science instead of 1.

    If you keep Trondheim working its current settings for 2 turns, then switch one worker to the ocean, the city will produce 5 extra science than it otherwise would, and only cost 1 turn longer on the settler (it would also have 19 food stockpiled by my count). That would get us 4 extra science (figguring the turn of lost science production due to the fact that the next city would be founded 1 turn later).

    Alternatively, if Trondheim is kept on its current production for 4 turns, then switched to the ocean, it will produce 2 extra science and have 20 food stockpiled -- and the settler would not be delayed at all. So far as I can tell, this option has no tradeoff with the status quo assignments, as the 2 extra food and shields produced would be wasted.
     
  14. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    I will try to play next. Will probably be monday.
     
  15. Bloody Monk

    Bloody Monk Chieftain

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    Good turns, Viking; and nice catch on the Science tweak, Professor.

    A little advice needed ... I understand the advantage of building on the river, but, would there be any advantage to building on the grain since it is closer to Tron??

    Monk
     
  16. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Hard to tell. Corruption has taken an even larger bite than I expected, as can be seen by altering trade in the cities we have now. On the other hand, building on the river and working the spice will produce 5 trade; if 3 are preserved, that will be 2 science production. Once the city grows, if it works the whale as well it will have 7 trade, hopefully 4 will be preserved at that location.

    If, however, only 2 trade will be preserved, the wheat might well be a better square to build on.

    The settler from Trondheim might do very well to build a city on that square, however.

    I would guess that we don't have more than 120 science before republic (current science is 65, we have 35, I doubt that the next tech will be more than 90); at 5 science per turn that is 24 turns, which is relatively close (at least in terms of how many settlers can be built and city growth time).

    Our best course of action with the Trondheim settler might actually be to send him 2 squares southeast and work the ocean for 3 trade (2 science). That will speed republic right up, after which we can sail more smoothly. Given the example of Uppsala, we won't get the first 3 trade without corruption on the Wheat.
     
  17. TheViking

    TheViking The world is not enough

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    Any news of our glorious empire? :D
     
  18. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    I'm still playing. Private life (operation of my son) caused that I couldn't play much turns. I hope I can finish soon.
     
  19. Bloody Monk

    Bloody Monk Chieftain

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    I'm sure everyone joins me in wishing your boy a speedy recovery.

    Monk
     
  20. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    All still goes fine with him. A little more tired then usual but looks like he's recovering well.
     

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