Firaxis and Laptop Owners: Alienation of a Core Demographic

Hi, sorry for my spelling but I'm a civ fanatic and I'd like to add some personal consideration to this interesting thread !

I'm very disappointed with this new release.
I loved Civ2 and Civ3...I've not played Civ1 but I loved the first Pirates! on Amiga (8MHz cpu!!!) (I like also the 2005's remake) : in practice Sid is my aunt ! :lol:

I can accept that Civilization 4 or CIV is a commercial name and it was used to sell a lot of copies...in other words I can accept that it's a totally different game but this is not the point.

Why I'm disappointed ?

target
FireAxis said "We want the family as target of our game".
FAMILY ??? What family has a computer able to run (well) this game or just run it?
A lot of people with "a real life" dont have an "Alienware"...simply they think "my computer is not so old: I'm sure I can play a strategy turn based game!".
It may sound strange ;) but there are people who dont understand the meaning of T&L or they dont care about download the latest patch (what is a patch???) :)

They think : "Black terrain bug? Well ! The game is crappy ! I will return it to the shop !"
At Fireaxis can smile because they have sold a lot of copies...but this will create a lot of problems too!!!
Moreover this game has an incredible depth (that's good!!!) but it's too much for the classic "family" (for example Pirates! is more suitable) ; on the other hand civ purist prefer a fast keyboard playable game instead of animated 3D graphics
The target is wrong !!!

implementation
This is a strategy turn based game not a first person hard core shooter!
Why this requirement ???
And sorry for the term but the implementation sucks !!!

I ran Civ3 on an old PIII 500MHZ with an ancient Voodoo3.

Now I'm using a PIV 2.8GHZ, 512MB, GeForce MX 440....ok it's not a powefull game machine but I can play UT2004, FS2004, Pirates! without any problem...the only exclusion is CIV!
I've not any graphic bug but the game is so lagged (it's lagged also the mouse cursor!!!) that I cannot play. It cause me headache :crazyeye: !!!
I tried to reduce resolution, disabled animations, disabled everything but the lag persists : the difference is that now the graphics is worst than Civ3 !!! :goodjob:
I cannot believe that a 3D engine can be so slow !!! We have seen a lot of good examples in the last 5 years ! Why not a sort of Empire Earth static engine (EA was light and fast and most important real-time!!! ) ?
I will change my card as usual (that's not the problem) but I dont want to spend $350 only to run this game....be serious!!!
Bad graphic engine!!!

testing

Now it's clear! The beta-testing was not finished! They have sold a crappy game! There are a lot of people with good specs and major bugs/crashes !!!
If they have tested the AI as they have tested the graphics we are done!
Why test the AI? There are a lot of modders that will develop a better AI for freee !!!
Civ3 was buggy too when it was released but not as this CIV !!!
French tech-tree !!! Mislabeled cds !!! There are people unable to install the DVD! Memory leaks (it's slow, at least it should be "safe" !!! ) We can continue...
The game was not tested !!!


reviews
I've not read a single review in which these problems arise. Why ? :mischief:
For example a 9.5/10 (instead of 10/10) because there are "minor" technical problems or the minimum system requirement is not realistic....something like this! Not a single note!!!
The reviews were written without play the game!

patches
Fireaxis will fix a lot of bugs but the problem is that the engine sucks and it will be always slow.
They cannot rewrite the engine !

conclusions
A static game, some text and a couple of icons can not require this hardware...there are not excuse: the game is bad programmed!
For me CIV has great potentials but the bugs and the poor implementation have broken the series !!!
 
Boy, am I getting sick of these whiney T&L threads.

Look at the statement in that Gamespot interview: "It will most likely be the same as for Pirates: a 1 GHz CPU, 256MB RAM, and a 32MB video card with hardware transform and lighting capabilities. ."

HARDWARE TRANSFORM AND LIGHTING CAPABILITIES. It's not like this is some big surprise that was only revealed on release day.

Sorry, but T&L is standard on today's desktops and laptop machines. If you can't run it, sorry. But please, stop with these T&L threads. The game's engine (Gamebryo) requires this very standard 3D hardware feature, and that's that.
 
Heh.

You know, if people actually bought laptops mindful of the necessity of gaming capabilities (hardware T&L at the least, maybe even some pixel shading going on), rather than budget, more laptop manufacturers would be making laptops with good onboard graphics.

The fact of the matter is, if you want a laptop for gaming, you're NOT going to get it on a budget.

http://www.voodoopc.com

Bite the bullet, and buy something that doesn't suck.
 
First, the engine should accept cards that dont support T&L. This is not impossible : detect capabilities and use different code.
Black terrain is not acceptable. But this is not the point and not a personal problem.

The point is that also with a good card and a powerfull CPU the engine is too slow for what it offers.
The input is lagged too: why? It's possible to render the GUI at an higher frame rate than the background (I think that Pirates! uses two different threads to do this)
Is it possible that there are people able to play Rome Total War perfectly and not CIV ?
Why is not possible to reduce the detail/resolution below the "minimum" settings ?

Be honest: is this the most incredible terrain engine ever seen ?
Again : the superb graphics is repaid by the requirements ?

But the problems are not only in the efficiency of the rendering...
 
Pyrion said:
Heh.

You know, if people actually bought laptops mindful of the necessity of gaming capabilities (hardware T&L at the least, maybe even some pixel shading going on), rather than budget, more laptop manufacturers would be making laptops with good onboard graphics.

The majority of people complaining about the black terrain / cheshire cat problem have Radeon Mobile 7500s - that have T&L and rudimentary pixel shading. The card is even listed as supported for the game. So tell me why people should "bite the bullet" if they already have T&L and a card that is supposedly supported, but clearly is not? You don't see them having a good reason to be a bit miffed at Firaxis? They are just whiners?
 
First of all let me say I can run the game fine on my desktop, no worries. I also have an Intel 8xxxx laptop that won't run it, but no surprise there.

But there are plenty of games out there that list hardware T&L as a minimum requirement, and the Intel 8xxxx chips handle them fine in software emulation. Civ 4 barfs. Fine, only the coding honchos can tell us why the difference. But if you're going to go ahead and not support this significant number of machines, just from a financial standpoint (never mind the customer relations) you should come up with a pretty damn compelling reason for the need for such a hardware requirement in a game like Civ. I haven't seen/heard of one yet. Have you?
 
"Boy, am I getting sick of these whiney T&L threads.

"Look at the statement in that Gamespot interview: "It will most likely be the same as for Pirates: a 1 GHz CPU, 256MB RAM, and a 32MB video card with hardware transform and lighting capabilities. ."

"HARDWARE TRANSFORM AND LIGHTING CAPABILITIES. It's not like this is some big surprise that was only revealed on release day."

"Sorry, but T&L is standard on today's desktops and laptop machines. If you can't run it, sorry. But please, stop with these T&L threads. The game's engine (Gamebryo) requires this very standard 3D hardware feature, and that's that."

No, you f___ P----, this is not one, "of these whiney T&L threads."
Read the MF subject. Does it ever refer to (Hardware) TnL vid cards!?

When I posted the OP, did I not say that I was the anti-chirst for buying a non HARDWARE TnL laptop, buying Civ IV, and *****ing about it on this post?! Because, frankly, that was the impression I've had over the last week on this forum, ie. "you're a douchbag for thinking that a 1 year-old laptop will run Civ IV! You should have a Alienware desktop like me and my D&D-playing fanboi friends." I've accepted this truth.
Seriously, if you have no complaints, then why are you hanging out on the Tech support website, p--ing off dudes like myself who haven't even joined this forum until our junk crashed? Not just you, but Willem and every other guy apologizing for Firaxis. You should be getting paid for the "customer support" you're providing. It's certainly much more than what Firaxis is providing. If I had a system that rocked Civ IV, I would be playing it until my wife divorced me, not on this thread antagonizing frustrating laptop owners who, frankly, should have given up this game years ago. Why, because they have priorities beyond getting on-line Civ IV Diety victories. Seriously, I've never joined a F- internet forum in my life until I opened Civ IV and saw a black screen.

Oh, don't give me that "Oh, I'm being civil and you're rude and unprofessional and mean..." reply. Your post, and that of many D__s on this thread have been passively-aggressive, if not actively aggressive, ripping on people who are genuinely pissd. DO NOT SAY you were just trying to help, because you obviously were not. This thread has nothing to do about TnL, as you assumed it had.

This thread, as I meant it to be when I started it, is essentially about marketing strategy, or the lack thereof. It is not a "Whiny TnL thread."

What leads you to disparage the legitmate complaints of consumers? Are they illegitimate? Answer my True/False questions. Am I wrong? If so, please let me know. I have taken a very (self)critical approach to this issue.

Lastly, I hate you and everyone like you.

:sniper:
 
Amidst the Vid Card TnL fury, I forgot the very first problem I experienced with Civ IV:
When I inserted the CD, it automatically booted up mu EPSQ questionaire (A completely unrelated application of which those of you with security clearance may be aware).

_______________________________
"Sometimes you eat the bar. And, well, sometimes the bar eats you."

This Dude will NOT Abide!
 
The sales in the PC game industry are shrinking because people are tired of the constant upgrades that they have to do into their machines to run new games. Today it's that T&L video card with 128mb ram, but in three months you need to put another video card with more power and after more three months one another to run this and that new game that need blablabla requirements. Lets face the fact: the industry are making games that dont run in most machines. Some people then buy a Xbox and drop PC games. A console dont need upgrades, dont need instalations, it's plug and play. Others continue with the older games, because new is not always better.
 
I think this issue by far transcends Firaxis, the Civ 4 engine, as well as T&L support. The issue is essentially catering to laptops vs. desktops. Laptops will always have issues with running cutting edge games. A laptop video card will always underperform a desktop video card with the exact same stats. Why? Becuase to make a laptop card, manufacturers have to do two things, 1.) decrease its size, and 2.) make it run at lower temperatures. They just don't have the flexibility to add all the bells and whistles that desktop cards have. So they cut corners, scale things back, even when it appears that it should operate at the same speed as a similar desktop model.

So, you will always have issues with running cutting edge software on a laptop, becuase corners have been cut.

This will always happen regardless of what company produces the game. The main thing that sells games in this era are the graphics. You can thank the flood of fps into the market for that. Since that is the main selling point of ANY game that comes out on the market, publishers are stressed to push the envolope graphically whenever they can. The result being, at the present, laptops for gaming simply aren't viable.

So instead of blaming firaxis, the blame should be placed on the consumers of the video game industry that have to buy the latest rehashment of all the exact same principles as any fps but, "OMG teh graphics in game R0xoR!!!111oneoneone"
 
I think this issue by far transcends Firaxis, the Civ 4 engine, as well as T&L support. The issue is essentially catering to laptops vs. desktops.

So instead of blaming firaxis, the blame should be placed on the consumers of the video game industry that have to buy the latest rehashment of all the exact same principles as any fps but, "OMG teh graphics in game R0xoR!!!111oneoneone"

Well... I think you are right that this is the point, but I draw a different conclusion.

I believe that game publishers are basically mired in an old go-to-market strategy that is no longer applicable. Games used to be directed primarily at teenaged boys - for the simple reason that this is a young industry, and when it started getting strong (about a decade ago) its primary target market was, indeed, teenaged boys, in addition to a small group of slightly older boys who have graduated from Atari and the Commodore 64, Apple II and their counterparts.

Thing is, today a lot of these people, those 1st and 2nd generation gamers, are no longer teenaged boys. They are mature adults, with families, careers, and a lot - a lot - more disposable income. That should be the best time for publishers to go to market, aiming at this group of people who have grown with computer games, are already hooked into the hobby, and are looking for a deeper experience precisely because they have grown up.

Instead, many publishers insist on focusing on the same, teenaged boy target market regardless of this dynamic. "That's what used to work, so it must keep working" mindset. Unfortunately, reality has been proving them wrong, continually, over the past 5 years, as PC game sales have literally dropped in half (in units sold) annually since 2000.

Instead, smart publishers who understand marketing should get their heads out of their collective ass, look around them, and see that there is a much bigger marget that is highly loyal to the concept of gaming, currently untapped, is not interested in flashy graphics or moving to consoles, and is just waiting to spend a lot more money on games than any other game purchasing demographic in history. I refer, of course, to us - the mobile professional, the turn-based strategy gamer who couldn't give a rat's ass about 3D, but would buy and buy and buy (because we could, because we have a lot more money to spend) games that are deep, challenging, and rewarding in their gameplay.

Of course, they should still tap the teenaged boy market, but with games targeted to that market, such as first-person shooters.

I feel that Take2 have made this mistake quite acutely with Civ4. There is zero need for any game in the civ series to be "oh so pretty", especially if it means that it will literally completely eradicate the most affluent target demographic for the game. Sure, they might have sold many copies of Civ4 to us from that demographic, so in the short term it might turn out nicely, but believe you me, Civ5 will sell a lot less copies because it won't even hit the sights of people like me. I won't even hear about it, because it won't matter by then. And that is a very very unfortunate decision.

There are enough examples of this dynamic, by the way. One that springs to mind is the Simcity franchise and its move to a "graphics oriented environment, screw the accessibility" approach, and what that has done to the franchise since then.

In a nutshell, and of course this is my opinion, Civ4 was designed from day 1 with the wrong demographic in mind. And I do think it will spell a long and painful decline for the series, unless they realize this now and - hastily as it may be - find some way to satisfy the needs of the large number of geezers like me who have perfectly modern business laptops who are facing trouble.
 
Running on a Dell Inspiron 8200 with Radeon Mobility 9000 here.

Had to downgrade my video driver to the original version that shipped with the laptop. I had previously updated this to run World of Warcraft, which also ran super fine on this machine.

Only problem I have running Civ IV is the mouse cursor flickers on screen with background crap following it around. Only a minor annoyance.

Having alot more problems getting it to run smoothly on my desktop (Ti GeForce 4200), which bsod's all the time.
 
I agree with you 100%, its not a viable business decision. I barely play any new games that come out at the present because of essentially their crappy production. To me graphics will always be secondary to a game because when I started playing graphics just weren't good. I mean have you SEEN the icon for the chariot in the first civ? Anyway, I scour the shelves whenever I have an itch to buy a game for one that has some semeblence of originality and gameplay. So mostly I stick to series I'm familiar with. Except, like you said, they are getting destroyed left and right.
Part of the problem is most of the PC developers are kinda in an economic toilet at the moment, evidenced by the rapid fall of Interplay. So they need to make a quick buck, and releasing a game with cutting edge graphics will get them some quick cash, but in the long run, they don't hook people to the game title.
Unless the PC industry does something to try and differentiate itself from the console market, it essentially is going to be subsumed by it.
 
For those of you with Dell Latitudes with a GeForce 4 440mx go video adapter, I downloaded and installed the Forceware 82.10 beta drivers on http://www.3dchipset.com and that cleared up my black terrain problem. I played with no problem for 30-40 minutes, but haven't tried taking a game into the later stages where some problems are apparently happening (and where the limitations of a 32mb GeForce 4 440mx Go might be reached).
 
civmod19 said:
The sales in the PC game industry are shrinking because people are tired of the constant upgrades that they have to do into their machines to run new games.

What the hell are you talking about? I upgrade once every three to five years and my rigs typically run whatever I can throw at them. My previous system could run Civ4, it had way more than the game needs.

Upgrading is a fact of life for a gamer, be it PC or console. You upgrade every three to five years anyways with a console, and I can get a decent PC upgrade out of the same price as a console these days (because I know what the hell I'm doing, apparently) so it's really a no-brainer. New consoles necessitate new games, yet I can still play Quake on this rig.
 
lightnng: your post is spot on!!!

I too belong to the generation you are talking about and I know many more that are still playing games. And, yes, we do have far more spending power than those teenagers (we were once like them as well).
Unfortunately, publishers and developers can't seem to understand that we would be willing to spend a lot of money for deep, good, engaging games. We grew up with crappy graphics, yet loved those games. heck, we even started with text adventures and we felt immersed and fascinated. Yes, I know computer technology has evolved, but I prefer an engaging game that is deep and creative, rather than those flashy graphics.

I do play other genres as well, but have gotten alienated by the games that are released in recent years. It's fairly similar for cinema shows, no story but flashy CGI.

I wish one day some developer would wake up and realise that there is a huge potential market to be tapped.
 
Sorry, but i have to speak against the Core of this Thread:

I do own two laptops:
a Targa with AMD2500+ mobile, 1GB Ram and an Ati9600 mobility
and a Maxdata Pentium Mobile 1,5 GHz, 1 GB Ram and Ati9600.

The Game works fine on both of them (even if i had to use the "unpak art-file" tip on the Maxdata, because there was no Menu).
There is no Problem at all with the Maxdata, and there is only a slight Memory-leak problem (i guess) on the Targa, which forces me to save and exit the game and start again every 2-3 hours (on a huge world map) - which is imho acceptable for a brandnew game (in my eyes, there is no way you can test that game in EVERY Combination of Hardware, especially not on every laptop out there !)

Remeber: this Thread is about us Laptop-Users (of course: the Problems with ATI-Cards, which are there are too much - 2K and Firaxis should have done something more to it - but thats not the point in this thread.

There ARE Laptops, on which the Game runs smoothly. I don't think, that you can expect a new Game to run on every Laptop right from the start, and i'm sure, that 2K and Firaxis will deliver patches for all of us with Problems (sadly, my guess is, they are going to concentrate on Desktops first...).

Baalol

----------------------------------------------
This is my Opinion. If you do not agree with me - i don't mind, you do have the Right to make up your own mind...
 
Good thread, I hope Firaxis will read this. Let me comment on some things:

- Except for Hardcore Gaming, notebooks will definitely replace desktops. I am in my late 20s, and NOBODY I know of (colleage or friend) bought a desktop during the last 4 or 5 years. AFAIK, notebook sales have topped desktop sales in Germany already in 2004.

- To those "technology is not static"-posters around: We are not talking about notebooks that are 10 years or older.

- At the very beginning it was conjectured that among the people buying civ4 are those with a notebook - older, not hardcore gamers, but willing to spend some money on a decent game. Though I obviously do not have any figures on that: I totally agree!

- With technological progress, it should become EASIER to run a game, not harder. I do not want to take care whether my chipset supports what-the-f***-ever. I remember spending 5 hours with autoexec.bat and config.sys in order to get some 613kb main ram, because w/o, no late ORIGIN game would run. And so it is firaxis fault, and not mine, or the one of the notebook-producers, that their game does not run on a significant fraction of computers. I do not want to spend €45, and fiddle around until it runs.

- I don't see the point why TnL is important at all for this game. Damn, even MS Flightsim 2004 runs decently on my machine, and I expect this thing to need a lot more graph power, INCLUDING lighting and textures and stuff.

Have fun!
 
I have an IBM ThinkPad R40 with an ATi Radeon 7500 Mobility - with TnL. It passes all requirements - minimum and recommended - on the srtest.com site. I can play Sid Meier's Pirates! without any problems, but I can not play Civ4. I have the notorious black terrain and floating leader eyes and mouth. That makes me rather sad.
Also, when using autorun.exe instead of installing the game, it attempted to install some odd drivers for a modem.
 
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