[GS] Firaxis Livestream: Hungary Nov 29 11AM PT, 2PM ET

Are canals mutually exclusive? The way I interpreted what Ed said was that the longest canal chain was 7 tiles. So say you have two cities each one tile from the coast. You build two canal districts in each and the Panama Canal connecting the two groups of three. 7 tiles.

My guess is canals can only be built adj to the city center but the Panama Canal can be built adj to coast or city centers.
 
Are canals mutually exclusive? The way I interpreted what Ed said was that the longest canal chain was 7 tiles. So say you have two cities each one tile from the coast. You build two canal districts in each and the Panama Canal connecting the two groups of three. 7 tiles.

My guess is canals can only be built adj to the city center but the Panama Canal can be built adj to coast or city centers.
Canals can only be linked to a body of water, a city center, or the Panama Canal wonder. Not other canals. So the maximum length is 7.
 
One thing caught my attention - when Ed talked about how at this stage of development he plays the game a lot and thus understands it from the player's view and notices some tedious functions, bugs etc.
How is it then even possible that the game still has that one huge problem, which was the main topic of the thread "the single thing that annoys you on Civ6" - the way how the game selects units that are far away from the current one and even absolutely aggressively, which often causes you to move some unit over the whole map, while even not knowing which unit it was!
 
One thing caught my attention - when Ed talked about how at this stage of development he plays the game a lot and thus understands it from the player's view and notices some tedious functions, bugs etc.
How is it then even possible that the game still has that one huge problem, which was the main topic of the thread "the single thing that annoys you on Civ6" - the way how the game selects units that are far away from the current one and even absolutely aggressively, which often causes you to move some unit over the whole map, while even not knowing which unit it was!
I had a similar thought when he said that line... there are a dozen glitches that are just as annoying and obvious as the one you mention, which he apparently doesn't notice.

Though that's surely the worst and most obvious of them.

I don't know. Maybe the programmers at Firaxis are an unruly mob who refuse to fix things?
 
I had a similar thought when he said that line... there are a dozen glitches that are just as annoying and obvious as the one you mention, which he apparently doesn't notice.

Though that's surely the worst and most obvious of them.

I don't know. Maybe the programmers at Firaxis are an unruly mob who refuse to fix things?

Like most people, Beach is going to come at the experience from his own perspective. We didn't get to see him play in this livestream, but we have in the past, and we did get to see his saved game, including the results of his self-described goofs.

A few things that have struck me based on these limited observations:

(a) He plays slow, so he wouldn't necessarily notice the number of UI inputs to accomplish something, for example.

(b) He likes micromanagement; he is, after all, the guy who wanted to take all automation out of the game because every decision should be fun.

(c) He approaches the game the way he does game design: he sees an opportunity for "hey, this would be cool to do on this map!" and then he goes about focusing on that. Not necessarily successfully, as if your objective is to link a bunch of cities by canals, you kind of need to recognize that you need to rush settlers into position before anybody else does, kind of need to make sure you build enough army to not lose your cities, etc. But he has a big idea, and that's what he enjoys.

(d) He thinks the game plays the way he intended it to play. This is a trap most people fall into. We heard him suggest to C/Karl that the fastest route to canals was to get 3 workshops built for one of the tech boosts. While going for boosts is usually a good idea, in this particular case it's insane to dump that much production into a single boost. The fastest way to get to canals in that particular situation was to boost your science output like crazy.

(e) He focuses on the immediate question being presented to him by the game, not necessarily on intermediate objectives. This is why the unit selection jumping all over the map might not faze him. He's happy to think linearly "what should this unit do now", rather than thinking "first I want to take out this city ... wait, why am I being dragged away from that theatre of operation?"

All of the above are broad stroke depictions, and likely have varying degrees of accuracy. But I think they may partially explain why things that bother some of us aren't noticed / cared about by the development team. Job one is always to please the Boss.
 
Like most people, Beach is going to come at the experience from his own perspective. We didn't get to see him play in this livestream, but we have in the past, and we did get to see his saved game, including the results of his self-described goofs.

A few things that have struck me based on these limited observations:

(a) He plays slow, so he wouldn't necessarily notice the number of UI inputs to accomplish something, for example.

(b) He likes micromanagement; he is, after all, the guy who wanted to take all automation out of the game because every decision should be fun.

(c) He approaches the game the way he does game design: he sees an opportunity for "hey, this would be cool to do on this map!" and then he goes about focusing on that. Not necessarily successfully, as if your objective is to link a bunch of cities by canals, you kind of need to recognize that you need to rush settlers into position before anybody else does, kind of need to make sure you build enough army to not lose your cities, etc. But he has a big idea, and that's what he enjoys.

(d) He thinks the game plays the way he intended it to play. This is a trap most people fall into. We heard him suggest to C/Karl that the fastest route to canals was to get 3 workshops built for one of the tech boosts. While going for boosts is usually a good idea, in this particular case it's insane to dump that much production into a single boost. The fastest way to get to canals in that particular situation was to boost your science output like crazy.

(e) He focuses on the immediate question being presented to him by the game, not necessarily on intermediate objectives. This is why the unit selection jumping all over the map might not faze him. He's happy to think linearly "what should this unit do now", rather than thinking "first I want to take out this city ... wait, why am I being dragged away from that theatre of operation?"

All of the above are broad stroke depictions, and likely have varying degrees of accuracy. But I think they may partially explain why things that bother some of us aren't noticed / cared about by the development team. Job one is always to please the Boss.

There is also a phenomenon which I call "Front of the screen Versus Back of the screen" - programmers don't often see things that the user/gamer sees, and certainly not in the same way.

I have an example from personal experience.

Years ago I was the Chief Instructor for rocket/missile Fire Direction at the US Army Artillery School at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. The actual development of much of the software for the fire direction computers was being done by Missile Command, which was in Alabama. I had to fly down there to give 'user input' on a new element of the system.
What they were trying to develop was a formatted message for a higher HQ to find out the status of a missile/rocket launcher. This gets really important when the launcher might have a nuclear warhead attached. All such messages were part of a system prefixed by AFU = 'Artillery Fire Unit'. The full title of the message, which would display across the top of the screen, would be AFU:XXXX.

Now, knowing that FU was the abbreviation for Fire Unit, guess which 4 characters they had selected to mean 'Fire Unit ChecK"?

Yes, indeed, they displayed that on the screen, I burst out laughing, and they said, "What's so funny?"
After weeks of working on this, NONE of the programmers had ever noticed what they were getting ready to display to the entire US Army Artillery.
The Colonel in charge afterwards said that I had earned my pay in five minutes. My reply was that at least his development group would have made it into the Military History Books, but as the Laughing Stock of the Twentieth Century...

I suggest that something similar has and is happening with Civ VI: so focused on what has to happen behind the screen to make things work, that there is no focus on what the users (us) are dealing with On the Screen.
 
(a) He plays slow, so he wouldn't necessarily notice the number of UI inputs to accomplish something, for example.
This probably would be one of the main reasons. I noticed it too, in the past streams when he was playing. It always seemed to me like if he was used to play using a mouse but had to use a touchpad on the stream. Or at least a completely uncomfortable mouse with a sensitivity setting he is not used to. Of course I'm not trying to attack him now, it's completely his thing, we all are different.
 
I rather like having Beach in charge because his approach to the game seems to be very similar to my own: focused on the emergent story and more on the builder side.
 
This probably would be one of the main reasons. I noticed it too, in the past streams when he was playing. It always seemed to me like if he was used to play using a mouse but had to use a touchpad on the stream. Or at least a completely uncomfortable mouse with a sensitivity setting he is not used to. Of course I'm not trying to attack him now, it's completely his thing, we all are different.


On this one, Beach and I are alike. I also play slow and the number of UI inputs don't particularly faze me, except in the Trade Screen. I do understand, though, why it's frustrating for others. And trying to shop around a trade … wow, that's a lot of mouse clicks.
 
I rather like having Beach in charge because his approach to the game seems to be very similar to my own: focused on the emergent story and more on the builder side.

Quick confirmation of your point, Zaarin, I dare say:


https://twitter.com/EdBeach23/status/1069004181187514371?s=19

Here's Ed's great chain of lakes Hungarian canal system.

If I played Civ for a million years I'd never care about connecting that inland city to the sea :lol:

Different things for different people. :beer:
 
This probably would be one of the main reasons. I noticed it too, in the past streams when he was playing. It always seemed to me like if he was used to play using a mouse but had to use a touchpad on the stream. Or at least a completely uncomfortable mouse with a sensitivity setting he is not used to. Of course I'm not trying to attack him now, it's completely his thing, we all are different.
Back when I played Diablo II I had a friend that played the game like that. Micromanaged his inventory constantly, fiddled with his builds, wasted a lot of time between battles. Drove me nuts, I was always running around the screen going "let's go kill stuff!"

Extra clicks, clunky menus, funky cycling, etc just do not bother gamers like that.
 
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Years ago I was the Chief Instructor for rocket/missile Fire Direction at the US Army Artillery School at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. The actual development of much of the software for the fire direction computers was being done by Missile Command, which was in Alabama. I had to fly down there to give 'user input' on a new element of the system.
What they were trying to develop was a formatted message for a higher HQ to find out the status of a missile/rocket launcher. This gets really important when the launcher might have a nuclear warhead attached. All such messages were part of a system prefixed by AFU = 'Artillery Fire Unit'. The full title of the message, which would display across the top of the screen, would be AFU:XXXX.
Большое Вам спасибо за столь полезную информацыю!

(Thank you so much for such useful information!)

Moderator Action: Please provide translations when you post in non-English on the forums
 
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Greivance system looks amazing!


Let's hope that's enough to keep the AI from grinding every CS on the map into dust.

Oh yeah, the Grievance System is brilliant. It'll irk me to get hate in the ancient era for being a war monger; but I appreciate that to get something nuanced that the AI can work with isn't easy; and I am super stoked at these changes!

I don't see how it would stop AI's who do go after CS from doing so though. Do you think they will see higher short term negative grievance points as undesirable enough?

Has Carl not heard of keyboard shortcuts? lmao

I suspect in live streams they all deliberately avoid keyboard short cuts; if for no other reason than to let less experienced players see what they are doing completely. It just drives the rest of us nuts.

I don't know who didn't think want to accept that it was intentional. Humans have historically abused resources of this kind for growth and productivity. This is the first game that truly emphasized that, and now it looks like they are intending to really emphasize the consequences.

Well, I do like how in the first livestream Ed noted that most of the so called consequences presented in this game are a projection of the future and not a current event. At least that keeps the game immersive in reality for me, and not some progressive eco-warriors dream of what the world is like.

I was expecting a enormous eruption with blazing fire streaming down the volcano in large amounts.

All we saw was strings of fire slowly crawling along the side of the volcano.

Who knows, maybe there are different levels of volcanic eruption, & we are just seeing tbe weakest one?

It did say "catastrophic eruption" or so, though ^^"

Yeah, that was the bit that got me. I wouldn't mind if most eruptions are lower key affairs; but a catastrophic eruption should be straight out of Hollywood ;)

which actually doesn't make sense at all, cause eyjafjallajokull is a small volcano that happened to have it's large eruption at the right time (into this era), at a "popularized" location, while the other volcanoes with a 'generic name' are much more explosive and deadly in general. Eyjafjallajokull is largely famous because it's in Iceland and because it disrupted air travel (mostly because the winds were in the wrong directions). The last 100 years were remarkably quiet, and since Pinatubo, some can argue that we even didn't had large eruptions (VEI 6 - 7 and VEI 8 (supervolcanic) ones), which seem to be unusual, especially since we had a lot of large eruptions in the 19th century. Of course, small eruptions can have far more consequences to people, depending on the geographical location and the nature of the eruption. But the VEI 4 of Eyjafjallajokull is the largest eruption in it's history, and it erupts quite infrequently. I don't think it was even seen as one of the 10 most active volcanoes before 2010. It was quite a dark horse candidate to erupt, but it did. It's neighbour Katla is much more dangerous. Hekla - not far away either - had much more violent eruptions in the past. Grimsvotn, Bardarbunga, Oraefajokull, Askja are all example of more dangerous volcanoes, and than you also have the danger of fissure volcanoes which are often networks of underground volcano chambers. The latest large one was the one of Laki in 1783-1784 which did contribute to historically large famines in India, and it's a major contibution factor to the environmental factors that helped the French revolution to take stage. It also may have set a period of climate change, in which the period between 1780 and 1820 are among the coldest decades in the last 1000 years (partly of very low solar activity, and other very large volcanic eruptions, like Tambora in 1815 or 1816 (1816 is called the Year Without a Summer and Tambora was the largest volcanic eruption in last 1500 years at least) and an unknown volcano that erupted in 1809/1810)

And if we criticize Firaxis for being too Eurocentric / Anglocentric, maybe consider that Yellowstone is way too overhyped (has large infrequent eruptions, but there are many unknown, sometimes even undiscovered supervolcanoes on the planet. The only reason why Yellowstone is so famous is because it's in America), and I also think it's hard to implement in the game, cause it's just plain hilly areas, and resembles more of a national park that happens to have geysers in it. In game, it wouldn't be perceived as a "volcano", and in this timeline it's mostly irrelevant. It's last eruption was longer than half a million years ago (okay, there might have been some smaller ones in the last 500.000 years), but why does Yellowstone have to be included, while Toba contributed to our lack of DNA variety 72.000 years ago, while Taupo had a number of severe eruptions, while Campi Flegrei in Italy partly led to the demise of the Neanderthals and while there are volcanoes like Sakurajima (inside Aira Caldera) or Tambora out there. And those latter two ones also are easier to represent in the game. I also don't think a supervolcano that could possibly erupt would make your game fun at all. It would be a reason to restart the game for a lot of people who were doing well in their game, and it's going to be very annoying. I don't think this is the road Firaxis has to take. But if the demand is high, some modders can potentially work on it, and deliver a number of scenario's you could play: ice age world, supervolcanic eruption, asteroid impact, and potentially also extraterrestrial invasion or zombie invasions.

On that, seeing as the Maori are very likely being added to the game, I wonder if we will see lake Taupo (which was the last super volcano to erupt; as far as I'm aware) added as a natural wonder?

"The initial event 26,500 years ago is known as the Oruanui eruption. It was the world's largest known eruption over the past 70,000 years, ejecting 1170 cubic kilometres of material and causing several hundred square kilometres of surrounding land to collapse and form the caldera. The caldera later filled with water, eventually overflowing to cause a huge outwash flood.[3] It is possible that the Lake Taupo event contributed to starting the Last Glacial Maximum."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Taupo#Lake_formation_and_volcanism

From the way they talked about Carl I don't think Ed's a super intense player. He seems to like the RP storytelling aspect and I'm guessing the funky unit cycling doesn't bug him much.

I actually think most RP players would find the jumping around jarring. It certainly doesn't help to weave a story.
 
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I actually think most RP players would find the jumping around jarring. It certainly doesn't help to weave a story.

I've learn to avoid it somewhat by NOT using the unit the game offers first, but selecting to first move all the ones around it. This way, the game keeps going back to the initial unit, that "pins" me on the zone.

I agree this was done better in other games, anyway.
 
I've learn to avoid it somewhat by NOT using the unit the game offers first, but selecting to first move all the ones around it. This way, the game keeps going back to the initial unit, that "pins" me on the zone.

I've learned to avoid it by turning off unit cycling.
 
I've learn to avoid it somewhat by NOT using the unit the game offers first, but selecting to first move all the ones around it. This way, the game keeps going back to the initial unit, that "pins" me on the zone.

I agree this was done better in other games, anyway.

That is...kinda helpful. Yet when you want to see the outcome of what happens with other units before coming back to said initial unit; there is no way to get the game to stop fixating on that unit. Click on the exclamation mark? Or use the short cut keys you have made? It'll take you back to that unit that you've kept moving away from, however you do it.
I just want a "wait" instruction (present in every previous edition of the game that I can remember) that pushes that unit to the back of the queue so you get to resolve all other units first.

I've learned to avoid it by turning off unit cycling.

Still doesn't help unless you go looking for each unit and click on them...which is waste of time and clicks to me.
 
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