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[GS] Firaxis Livestream - Māori - December 6

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    True of the group that became the Maori, but if you go that far back you're just using the name for a civ which is not the one indigenous to New Zealand, so again it's a poor representation. I would expect that the Maori themselves would expect to see something that references that connection, such as a gameplay focus on their rapport with the environment beyond 'can't harvest resources' (Ed Beach made a reasonable case in the stream that this is more respectful of the Maori's specific traditions than just a generic 'noble savage' approach) or a greater focus on a military playstyle. And yes, they may want Kupe's Voyage represented, but I don't think that has to be incompatible with making them a terrestrially-focused civ.

    The sea start is a fantastic idea, but if you wanted to represent the Maori more faithfully there has to be a way of implementing that which isn't coupled to bonuses that encourage an ocean-going playstyle once they find a suitable home. Perhaps the 'can cross oceans' ability only lasts until their starting units disembark, so they start off with the voyage but once they make landfall they're stuck with what they find until they go through the normal tech progression.

    Maori as a naval ci is akin to Scotland as a naval civ because the Scots were invaders over the sea from Ireland. They used boats to get there, but Scotland has no especially characteristic naval tradition.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018
  2. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    We can count Ethiopia as one of those Middle Eastern civs--it's just across the Red Sea from Arabia. :mischief: Don't care about Portugal, and as much as I love Byzantium we're kind of overflowing the Greeks already. Next thing you know they'll be adding the Republic of Greece. :p

    I personally think the decision to make Gilgabro speak Akkadian was a conscious choice based on The Epic of Gilgamesh.
     
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  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    ...but aren’t those terrestrial aspects already covered? They get a really scary UU - that will buff their normal units - so there’s the warrior bit; and they get additional cogs from rainforests and forests and their Super unique amphitheater which gives the land additiona culture and faith; so there’s your connection to the land.

    The sea abilities are Kupe’s abilities. Which I think works. So, you could have a modded Alt leader that leans into the other aspects.

    Maori look like a bit of a hybrid Civ. They tick all the boxes for the Maori (short of having All Blacks as their UU... god, that actually would be awesome... sorry, side tracked...) but they also cover a bit of the Polynesia gameplay.

    FXS can only make so many Civs. I don’t think it’s wrong to both try bringing new and distinct historical / current cultures into the game, but also at the same time try to cover a few other bases too.
     
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  4. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Everyone gets a UU and every unique building/district is terrestrial if not associated with a harbour or water park. I think the best way to approach civs is to incentivise them to play in a 'historically appropriate' way, and this civ is strongly incentivised to be naval even if you can look at the abilities in isolation and see that most are 'sort of Maori'. They're going to play very similarly to Polynesia in Civ V, even if they do have a better UU that lets them be more aggressive.

    Once again, I'd much rather have the civ as it's presently designed under a different name (just as I'd rather keep Carthage than have Phoenicia, though we don't yet know what they're doing with Phoenicia that might make that choice more appropriate) than a reasonably standard warrior civ called the Maori - I'm not criticising the design at all.
     
  5. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    Well, their UU could be a naval unit. And their unique infrastructure could be something that doesn’t interact with the land. And as I said, their UA also directly buffs jungles and forests.

    I think the non-Naval stuff is very Maori and covers what you’re asking for (although I understand if you don’t agree). If there’s something wrong with the Maori, to me it seems to be that with the LA they are Maori + Polynesia instead of just being Maori. I can understand how you might not like that, but honestly I think it’s forgiveable - FXS are clearly using this Civ to cover a few different goals or ideas in one go. There’s only so many Civilization slots to go around.

    [edit: sorry, that may not have come out the right way. What I mean is, I think the non-Naval stuff does a good job of representing the Maori. I agree they might have been a better “Maori” Civ if FXS hadn’t folded in the sailing / Polynesia stuff. I think what we have is therefore a bit of a compromise. I guess I’m just happy to wave this one through - I’m stoked to get both Maori’s and Polynesia, even if that means they get sort of smushed into one Civ. They’re a bit like one of those pictures of an old woman and that is also a picture of a young lady depending on how you look at it.

    Hmm. Maybe my clarification has just made this post worse. ...I’m really not on form today...

    On a different note. At some point I hope we get an indigenous Australia Civ. If that could also have some unique mechanics around settlers or cities that would be pretty cool too - no idea how that would work though. I’m okay with having colonial Civs like Australia, America - nose Civs clearly fill a need for some players - although I wish I could exclude them from some of my games sometimes. ...but, it sort of bothers me that modern Australia gets represented in Civ, but the country’s First Australians don’t (... and yes, I realise there are multiple tribes / language groups, and they’re not all the same... ). It’s particularly annoying because the historical record and culture of First Australian is so amazing - as are some of the successes they have had in contemporary Australia. There is some really amazing stuff here.]
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  6. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    Meh, I already feel like they are stretching the definition of civilization too much as is. At least include natives that actually built something great like the Mayans. It is strange they are not in.

    This may be controversial, but maybe it's time to make Athens a city state and get rid of Greece as a civilization. I believe they have been in all 6 games, so that would be controversial.
     
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  7. ezysquire

    ezysquire Warlord

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    Oh PhilBowles, how can Maori be a poor representation of themselves? I'm going to try to help you with some cultural understanding here.

    The people on the boat are the same people who made Aotearoa home. You can't deny Maori their ancestors, they are blood. In Maori culture, ancestry is sacred and has different meaning to how we understand it in the Western tradition. It's just not appropriate to talk about modern Maori as a people "who became Maori" as it implies they are not related to their blood ancestors.

    In addition, saying their ancestors are "not indigenous to New Zealand" is offensive because by definition it challenges the principle of kaitiakitanga (guardianship) by suggesting this land was not theirs as told by their own traditions. Because the issue is one of culture-based definitions there can be no resolution and so it's inappropriate to say it and make value judgements about it.

    I get that you're not meaning to cause offence, and hope that you might take on board what I've explained here as a New Zealander. In this country we are deeply respectful of cultural differences and when talking about Maori in any context we do so without making comments which impinge on Maori mana. That is the Maori way and therefore the only appropriate way to do so.

    Please just think twice about your language before posting next time because I don't believe it's your intention to offend, but the wrong words can inadvertently.

    In a positive spinoff of this discussion, I hope it might help Fanatics understand more deeply the Maori world view of kaitiakitanga which the civ design is based on. That kind of cultural lesson was always a reason I liked the franchise and hope it might be for others too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
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  8. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Since you seem to have a lot of understanding, I‘d like to pose four hopefully non-offending and non-controversial questions:

    Would you say that Maori + their land is a similar symbiosis to Jews + their promised land?

    What do Maori state when you ask them where they originate from?

    Do Maori feel related to other Polynesians or is it a bit like with the Armenians that feel surrounded by different and hostile others?

    And related to the last two: would they admit that they‘ve once been part of another culture and people? I mean, in my understanding, it‘s trivial since everyone was at some point, but that doesn’t mean they share that historical consciousness or simply prefer their own traditions.
     
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  9. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    Hey I think the Armenian refugees now Lebanese citizens feel rather welcome here :mad:
     
  10. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Oh this can quite possibly be. It's more of a history-oriented comment, when Armenians didn't feel very warmly to their various orthodox christian neighbors, nor to the Yazidis, different Muslims, Druzes, Persians etc. despite having a lot of (friendly) contact through trade and Armenian quarters in basically every major city throughout the near and middle east.

    Anyway, I always had a feeling that Lebanon is a very special country nowadays in which different ethnicities, religions, political views, and ideas how to live a life coexist in a very friendly way without drifting into a lot of parallel societies. Makes Beirut one of the most interesting cities on the planet imho, hope to come back in the near future. If just this could be similar in other regions and countries, but sadly, it is rather rare. Nepal with it's 100+ ethnicities in a small country is another good example where this seems to work well.
     
  11. ezysquire

    ezysquire Warlord

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    These questions are all fine to ask, no worries at all. I'll answer one at a time:

    No, I think they're really quite different ideas because for Maori their world view about Aotearoa is based on the natural world and for Jews their promised land idea is a matter of faith which is a human construct. But it's hard for me to answer this one because I'm no expert on Judaism and could be wrong with that comment, and am not trying to provoke debate there at all.

    Maori will reply with their hapu and iwi, which in English are similar to family and tribe. On the NZ Census they would identify as Maori.

    They reserved the hostilities for each other mostly! There was plenty of war between iwi long before Europeans arrived in NZ, but in terms of feeling related to other Polynesians there's no right or wrong there. Some modern Maori would feel that and others would just be fiercely proud Maori.

    Maori are modern and educated and so there is no debate about their Polynesian ethnicity as the science is proven.
     
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  12. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Thanks for the answers, that's helpful.

    In my limited knowledge of Maori, I thought they are/were either Cosmotheists or Pantheists and hence the beliefs about the natural world are also closely related to a human religious construct. That's why the parallel came to my mind that there is a religious based connection and symbiosis between people and land.
     
  13. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    A civilization is a culture, and some cultures can be "what if"s.
     
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  14. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    Well, let me re-word it. He doesn't care where a civ is from, he cares about what a civ achieved. And he has noticed that there are a lot of civilizations that achieved a lot that originated from the Middle-East. And that's why the Middle-East should be overcrowded. It has nothing to do with the location, only with history.
     
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  15. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    By that logic the Maya should stay as a city-state as well.
    And 6 of the great ancient wonders of the world are from the Greek world.
     
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  16. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    How will Firaxis distinguish the Urartu and Elam leaders from Assyria/Babylon/Gilgamesh? They all had long braided beards. Dress in the same clothing.:p Most importantly, Urartu and Elam have no female leaders. :p Expansion will be a Middle Eastern sausage fest.

    I don't think Gilgabro speaking Akkadian was a conscious choice based on The Epic of Gilgamesh. They couldn't get someone to write Sumerian dialogue. Maybe they even thought the Sumerians spoke Akkadian. :crazyeye: I think Urartian and Elamite scholars would be even harder to find then Sumerian. Also, they have to remove cities from Persia's City-list then (Tushpa and Susa are on it).
     
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  17. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 Emperor

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    BWAHAHAHAHAHA that was amazing
     
  18. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 Emperor

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    All the more reason to do it
     
  19. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

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    To be fair, the ones who said they were great were Greeks :p
     
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  20. HanNorwood

    HanNorwood .exe

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    Hey, I wasn't able to watch the livestream, and I haven't seen anything on this thread.

    Did anyone spot the globe that hinted Hungary and Maori, or did they discover we figured them out and hide it? :crazyeye:
     

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