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[GS] Firaxis Livestream - Māori - December 6

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by bite, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    They kept turning it throughout the livestream and Sarah gave it a good spin at the end.
     
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  2. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Thanks for the cultural perspective, ezyquire, and the understanding of possible crossed wires arising from cultural differences.

    I must admit, I find this confusing. I'd have thought stating that the people who landed in New Zealand "became Maori" very strongly implied an ancestral relation, and I wonder if I may just be missing the importance to the Maori of the name 'Maori' itself. My intent was simply to distinguish - once again in the context of the way the civ is represented in the game - the modern Maori - the culture that has been settled in New Zealand from broader Polynesian cultures (most of which have a stronger maritime tradition), including the ancestral Maori. Distinguished in terms of playstyle (naval vs. terrestrial, explorers vs. warriors), that is, not to imply they're a different people from the ancestral Maori. My concern being that the civ design is much closer to the latter than the former (and the former was simply called 'Polynesia' in Civ V).

    This however simply seems to be confusion resulting from a lack of clarity in my wording. Once again I was suggesting that the name of the civ as designed is appropriate to Polynesian seafaring cultures (who are not indigenous to New Zealand) rather than to the one Polynesian culture which is indigenous to NZ (i.e. the Maori). I hope that's clearer.

    Indeed - this is in a way part of what I've endeavoured to get at, apparently clumsily: The (seafaring) Polynesian-centric nature of the civ design isn't very Maori.

    You may have noticed that the revelation that the Maori can't harvest was greeted by some people in these comments (myself included before watching the stream) as a nod to the generic European stereotype of the 'noble savage' for indigenous groups in other parts of the world. It wasn't widely recognised that this genuinely reflects an important element of Maori culture, and the way it's presented in the game doesn't do anything to highlight it as a specific Maori trait rather than a vaguely thematic drawback required for game balance, like the inability to recruit Great Writers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
  3. HanNorwood

    HanNorwood .exe

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    United Government of Earth confirmed as the next First Look.
     
  4. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    The Sumerians did speak Akkadian, and the Akkadians spoke Sumerian--that's how the Mesopotamian Sprachbund developed. :p But not at Gilgamesh's time. At Gilgamesh's time Akkad was a little backwater and a powerful Sumerian king would have simply spoken Sumerian. A Sumerian scholar might not be as accessible as an Akkadian one, but I find it hard to believe they couldn't have found one if they really wanted to. Their Akkadian scholar probably could have pointed them to one himself (or herself). ;)

    Well, Susa is Ŝuŝan in Elamite, so that's not really a problem. :p Tushpa is a bigger issue, but just make the capital Arzashkun and there you go. :p
     
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  5. Sagax

    Sagax Emperor

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    They couldn’t find an erhu player for China’s theme. What hope have you for a Sumerian linguist that ideally should also be simultaneously good at voice acting? (Bonus points: must have testosterone-filled voice to fit Gilgabro)
     
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  6. FearSunn

    FearSunn Warlord

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    My apologies for being so late to the discussion, but I've just recently watched the video.
    Does anyone find that insane landform spit featured in this video weird? Even PR lady called it "interesting".
    No reaction from EdBeach (as always, he ignores non-senses he is lead designer of).
    Don't you think theremight be something seriously wrong with map script?
    Sorry if it has been already discussed. Just ignore then.
     
  7. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Too early to tell, but my guess is that's intentional. No point in adding Canals as a district without tweaking the map script to create more situations where they're likely to be useful.

    They've also adjusted the map script to try and create more realistic continental divides, with more mountains and volcanoes along those divides.

    So, lots of moving parts, and potentially this is an area for continued tweaking between now and release.
     
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  8. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

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    Carthage wasn't as unified as something like Rome, though. The Carthage in Spain operated fairly independently from the Carthage in North Africa. At its strongest, it operated like Caesar's adventurism in Gaul. At its weakest, it was more like Carthage's initial relationship to Tyre. For example, Hannibal's war with Rome really was Hannibal's, not Carthage's. (I'm basically just saying I don't want elephants crossing the Alps again)

    Three quick things:

    1. There were more than two leaders in Carthage's history besides Hannibal and Dido. Why not Hasdrubal I? Or someone from the Republican era besides Hannibal?
    2. As has been mentioned, there aren't any depictions of Dido/Elisa that aren't Hellenistic. Though that's probably oversimplifying given how much Greek art and dress were influenced by the East.
    3. Minor historical note, but Hannibal was able to defeat Rome tactically, but his plan had a major strategic flaw. He depended on Rome's allies switching sides, but wasn't able to protect them when they did.
     
  9. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    The linguist doesn't have to read the lines, only write them (just as they did with Akkadian). Besides, who says linguists can't have manly voices? :p I also find it hard to believe they couldn't find an erhu player...

    Of course not: Rome was highly centralized where Carthage was not, but Carthage did have more political unity than Phoenicia. And I also don't want Carthaginian elephants: Carthage was a maritime economic and exploration power, not primarily a military one.
     
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  10. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

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    I think we're in complete agreement. Except that I like Phoenicia being represented by Carthage. I do worry it'll just be a re-skinned Carthage, but if they play up its Semitic/Maritime heritage more as Phoenicia, I'll be happy.
     
  11. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Maybe the Sumerian linguists refused to write dialogue for Firaxis (I would, after seeing Firaxis' horrible representation of Sumerian history :p)? Or maybe you are right in that Gilgy speaking Old Akkadian was intentional?

    Also, the problem with the Erhu player, was finding one who could read Western musical notation. Erhu players are familiar with Chinese musical notation, not western. I know, because I learned how to play the Erhu before.
     
  12. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Shouldn't really a be a problem. Find one that can play by ear and send him a midi what he should play. Every halfway capable player should be able to do that, classically trained or not. Or have someone transcribe it in Chinese musical notation, which also shouldn't be a problem. It's not like any of the melodies are complex or overly long.
     
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  13. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    They could've hired my old Erhu teacher. He's a master. But I guess Geoff Knorr and company didn't try hard enough.
     
  14. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    Or they thought that a sampled instrument is sufficient anyway for most listeners ;)
     
  15. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    That's still my theory.

    That makes more sense, but as Siptah said there are ways around that if they'd tried.

    Ugh. The MIDI files used for the Great Works of Music are like an assault on my ears. :cringe:
     
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  16. Canterbury

    Canterbury Warlord

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    I think your description of Māori ancestors is fair. They didn't start as indigenous to Aotearoa/New Zealand before arriving there, but became so after they discovered and settled the land before anyone else did. They also wouldn't have called themselves "Māori" originally. The name comes from the term "tangata māori", which has cognates in many Polynesian languages and means something like "natural/ordinary people" – as opposed to people from different lands or even supernatural beings. Originally our ancestors affiliated primarily with "hapū" (clan or subtribe) and "iwi" (tribe ... side note, nice to hear the devs use this word in the livestream). The term "tangata māori" became a convenient way of differentiating themselves from Europeans in the 18th & 19th centuries, and eventually the shortened name "Māori" came to refer to our people collectively, including our seafaring ancestors who settled Aotearoa.

    Speaking of seafaring, I don't think that a seafaring civ design isn't very Māori. Our oral traditions say that our ancestors arrived in New Zealand in waves, some generations or perhaps centuries apart. My own iwi traces its founding to people who arrived in New Zealand on a waka (canoe) called the Mataatua, and settled among people that had already lived in the area for generations. The two groups eventually merged and their descendants gave rise to several tribes, including my own. Centuries later (around the 16th century, I think), another group of Māori settled the Chatham Islands, 800 km to the east of New Zealand, and became known as the Moriori. Hardly an ocean way, but it demonstrates that the Māori retained some seafaring capability.
     
  17. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    Ha, so check out the tweet at the finish of today's livestream of Canada. For those thinking this civ is that strong, what will you do when all your districts flood? And judging by what we see in the game, most of that came from one civ- England, so there's not much you can do about it other than build the flood barriers at high cost.

    https://twitter.com/EdBeach23/status/1073325080531353601?s=19

    Something to consider when settling those low lying islands.

    It's funny that England will be the #1 polluter in games now. :lol: Firaxis found a new way to stick it to England.
     

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