Firaxis Livestream tomorrow, Wednesday Sept 7th at 4pm ET: Let's Play Religion

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by SupremacyKing2, Sep 6, 2016.

  1. Silverdawn

    Silverdawn Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    490
    If the worker goes through the city center, I don't believe that rule applies.
     
  2. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2010
    Messages:
    15,960
    I was wondering that too, but I haven't gone back to check yet.
     
  3. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,478
    Location:
    Beyond the Veil
    Last question, what do apostates do? Are they mini prophets? Super missionaries/inquisitors?
     
  4. Penry

    Penry Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Yeah, on watching further, what I thought was a solid closed border is, by the looks of things, a border that activates when a religious units is selected. Before and after he interacts with the Apostle, when he has military units selected, the Hattusa border is dashed and open.

    Interesting that the borders with Hattusa are shown as open when Philip and Hattusa do not have a Suzerain relationship and it clearly states open borders as one of the bonuses of having said relationship!
     
  5. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,495
    Location:
    Indiana
    I think you mean "apostles" not "apostates". They are like super missionaries. They can spread religion like missionaries but can also engage in theological combat against other religious units. They also get special promotions and can start inquisitions.
     
  6. Silverdawn

    Silverdawn Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    490
    This is what was on the first three buttons when it is selected:
    • "Evangalize Belief" - Adds a belief to your religion. Two can be added after the prophet founds it.
    • "Launch Inquisition" - Starts the Inquisition so can create Inquistor units
    • "Spread Religion" - Spreads religion to a city like Missionaries can

    The Apostle must be in friendly territory to do the first two.

    Examples of the promotions an Apostle could get were:

    • Orator: Can spread religion two extra times [so 4 charges instead of 2 charges]
    • Proselytizer: If he spreads religion to a city, wipes out all other religions there at the same time [like Prophets do in Civ V]
    • Heathen Conversion: Converts barbarians adjacent to the Apostle to your civilization

    I sounded like when the Apostle is created, you have the choice of two randomly chosen promotions.

    Ed said Inquistors were very strong in their own territory at snuffing out other religions and for religious combat.

    Religious units need to go to a Holy Site in order to heal.

    Apostles have a base strength of 110 compared to 100 for Missionaries.

    Spoiler :

     
  7. Miravlix

    Miravlix King

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2012
    Messages:
    645
    Congrats, that the most wrong thing anyone has ever said on this forum.

    Command-line is exceptionally faster to use than GUI. It result in vastly reduced wasted time to perform operations.

    A touch typist can write more words on a typewriter than someone using one or two fingers. That isn't rocket science to figure out, but your not even talking about that. Instead your claim would be like someone claiming it's better to write a book with a mouse, than with a keyboard and that is simply not true.
     
  8. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    Messages:
    5,514
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Novosibirsk, Russia
    It's faster to enter information, but gives much less of it. You could do limited set of routine operations in it (or in specific conditions like managing another device through slow connection), but for complex work, graphical interface is superior.

    P.S. Anyway, that's offtopic and was just an example.
     
  9. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2014
    Messages:
    421
    I really, really like how versatile and valuable faith creation will be in this game. Considering it is the base version, it's fantastically flushed out so far with options. Being able to buy Great People with faith, being able to generate these bad ass Apostles, or simply use it in the traditional BNW ways.

    If you luck out with a Heathen Conversion Apostle? Fantastic. Find a distant barb camp with some good units? Unless there's a cap on units, that'd be some tremendous farming.

    I also like this idea of continuing to build a religion, or conversely, if your neighbor does, the real benefits that will be available could be significant.
     
  10. Silverdawn

    Silverdawn Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    490
    I expect how many times a given Apostle can do it is tied to charges so a normal Apostle would be able to do it twice.
     
  11. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2014
    Messages:
    421
    I forget, how does it work with missionaries in BNW? I thought it was unlimited in BNW, but I might be wrong on that.
     
  12. Gintoki89

    Gintoki89 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    214
    I'm pretty sure that was the case, but I doubt that would continue in this, seems overpowered without having to do the equivalent of completing most of a Civ V policy tree. I'd guess it uses spreads.
     
  13. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2014
    Messages:
    421
    So, the issue is that if it uses spreads, it is suddenly not nearly so interesting. It'll take a lot of faith for an Apostle. Do you really want just 2 swordsmen in return? Rather than use that Apostle to kill any rival missionaries you see, or enhance your religion?

    If it's limited, frankly, I'd never choose it over the religious choices unless the units were peak and close by. Which is unlikely mid-game.

    Apostles can war unlimited, as we saw in the video (they just have to go back to a holy site to heal). If they can't heathen convert unlimited, you wouldn't waste them on barbs.
     
  14. Penry

    Penry Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    I watched the actions of our blocked Apostle again and the border with Hattusa are in fact definitely closed. Whether or not closed borders deny religious units is an uncertain point to me though.

    Must get some fresh air and stop analysing Dev Let's Plays.....:crazyeye:
     
  15. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2016
    Messages:
    390
    Location:
    Mackay, QLD, Australia
    Excellent Point and a reminder that there is always a cost in Civ :) Sure you may get your bonus but you are specifically giving up something else for it. Say your home Continent is very good and your neighbour continent is poor. Do go all in on your Bonus and the cost of mediocre cities, or do develop the better cities at the cost of an early bonus?

    Not to mention,. as you wrote, the increased chance of running into other civs that spawned on that continent, as well as conceding your continent to your rival. Maybe if Teddy started where Spain was and vice versa the game landscape would have been quite different.

    In this case Spain got an awesome start with Teddy spawning alone on the biggest continent and Spain spawning on the border(not to mention close proximity to a natural wonder and City States :)

    The question is why did Teddy settle on China's Continent :(, If he turtled and pushed South rather than West, maybe he wouldnt of gotten beaten up, he was getting roll-stomped :(.
     
  16. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2016
    Messages:
    390
    Location:
    Mackay, QLD, Australia

    Nah, it is only Harsh because it a Surprise War. Once you get Casus Belli's it would be a lot easier to go to war, as long as you have a good reason. Also if they Denounced them previously the Warmongering penalty is also reduced. In the stream they did mention to "not do this at home", implying that you wouldn't do it. China was neutral with them and Spain just back-stabbed them for no reason. Also the surprise War Penalties are lot more forgiving early in the game. Once you get to Medieval Era, you kind of need a reason to go to war, which is brought in by the Casus Belli. I feel this system is going to more forgiving (diplomacy wise) for War than Civ5.
     
  17. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2016
    Messages:
    390
    Location:
    Mackay, QLD, Australia
    In regards to the worker Blocking the Apostle, that was a really terrible spawn point for the City State. from what i can tell it only had 2 hexes that were not mountains within its Culture Zone, which would explain why there builder was just chilling, not to mention the bottleneck on the only entrance. I doubt that is going to be a common thing.
    In regards to Civilian Sharing tiles, Religious Units aren't civilian anymore as they now have a combat strength and get can attack/be attacked. You could make it so neutral Civilian Units can stack with third party units however that will give a side effect of stacking all your units on their builders/great people etc and then just declaring war giving you an instant benefit. Artificially moving these units back to a City or Borders feels cheap and punishing for people who don't game it.. Idk, its tricky because civilian spam clogging the map can be annoying but there is no clean way to solve this, at least now workers have an expiry date and now you can kill Religious Units negating "missionary Spam". I know Ed got screwed in the livestream but that was quite a ridiculous situation. I was more concerned that Game script allowed the city state to spawn in such a terrible spot :(

    Also, anyone else noted in the Norway game that Great Prophets was grayed out because they had already founded a religion? SO what is the point of accumulating Great prophet Points after a religion, which you will because you want the Faith anyway? There must be some type of Conversion into faith or maybe they add to Apostle spawning. From the video though Apostles are bought with faith. Idk, it seems like a particularly irritating loose end. Considering if you go religious you will be generating GPP... for what? I would like GPP to generate a Super Apostle's maybe with 2 Promotions. Or maybe a new Religious unit, with 1 charge that creates a Tile improvement. Or maybe GPP add's a Bonus to all yields generated by religious Art and relics, or maybe it reduces the faith cost of religious units...something!!. I was hoping this question would be answered in this livestream, alas no :(, it would suck if GPP was only useful for founding a Religion, it just seems bizarre that the only reason do focus on GPP is to get a Religion as quick as you can, than the rest of the time it contributes nothing. As far as i am aware No other Great person has this limitation, Sure you will be capped by Eras but at least it builds to the next one, so if you focus on say Great Scientist points in the beginning it still works for you at the end.
     
  18. Magil

    Magil Monarch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,618
    The sane way to handle it would that military units stacked on top of (newly hostile) civilian units would get pushed off to the nearest open space upon a declaration of war (with no moves left). Preventing the exploit of the AI. Realistically though it seems unlikely that you're going to be able to march a bunch of military units in their territory and stack on top of their civilians to intentionally exploit the mechanic--it's a far more ridiculous situation than the city-state placement (that kind of situation is just going to pop up as long as 1UPT exists).
     
  19. dturtle1

    dturtle1 Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2016
    Messages:
    390
    Location:
    Mackay, QLD, Australia
    And if there is no tile to be pushed off ? on top of this no movement points so if you happen to Declare war while on a third party Civilian you get punished. Not to mention the extra coding and bug's that this could bring about to do this, Nah. As i mentioned Civilian spam won't nearly be a problem as in Civ5(It was personally only sometimes annoying, i have never been totally choked in by Civilians, maybe i have to wait a turn) because you can actually remove them (religious Units) and builders have a Lifespan.

    I think Spawning a City State in such a inhospitable position however is more concerning and relatively easier to fix, It is not like the Map would spawn a player there. City states deserve a nice place to live too :), especially with the concept of unstacked cities. Not to mention that if that City State spawned the other side of the mountains the congestion problem wouldn't have been an issue. I have never seen a cmore horrible City State spawn in all my time playing Civ5
     
  20. Magil

    Magil Monarch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,618
    There will be an open space somewhere. "Nearest" doesn't have much in the way of a limitation. It's already what the game has done in the past in the case of cancelled open borders and the like, magically teleporting units to nearby empty spaces, so it's hardly a new or broken thing. (As for the third party, no, you only need to get teleported if the military unit is stacked with a now-hostile civilian unit, a neutral civilian unit is not an issue).

    That spot isn't necessarily inhospitable, it looks like there are potentially plenty of workable tiles on the other side, and it's very defensible. In a military situation it'd be very easy to defend from attacks originating on that particular side. It's the civilian side of things that makes it annoying (enforcing no civilian unit stacking alongside no stacking with units controlled by other Civs).
     

Share This Page