[R&F] Firaxis, please fix England (again)

[acluewithout]

Dear Firaxis ( @FXS_Sarah )

I know you just “buffed” England in the Spring Patch. But it’s still not right.

Please fix R&F England again. But for real this time.

Short version: Losing trade route stacking made England much less fun; Pax Brit has then been nerfed badly (melee units only from settling) and now, instead of un-nerfing it, it looks like the Spring Patch only slightly un-nerfed it and made it more confused (melee unit from building a Royal Navy Dockyard); and loyalty for having a Harbour is … not great. It doesn’t help you that much because you don’t get the benefit until you build a harbour, and the bonus isn’t that strong for settling continents mid game anyways. And, I mean, England takes pride in its Navy, Airforce and Military; not actually its harbours…

Please have the RND give +1 extra trade route (max, one per continent you have a RND on). Please let England’s boost loyalty from garrisoned melee units not harbours. And then, for the sake of everyone for whom England is their favourite Civ and has waited patiently for England to be at least ‘okay’, please, please, completely overhaul Victoria’s Leader Ability. (And while you’re at it, maybe boost settling on foreign continents for England and everyone else too.)

What’s wrong: England has been the bastard child of Civ VI from the start. Everyone started with Harbour / Commercial Hub stacking in Vanilla, then you nerfed that. That made England weak, so you gave just England trade route stacking, which was pretty good. In R&F you killed England’s trade routes again – twice, actually, because their Royal Navy Dockyard no longer gave a Trade Route (they needed a Lighthouse for that), and they couldn’t stack trade routes any more either. Then you nerfed Pax Britannia hard. Now you’ve tweaked it again, but in a way that’s – sorry guys and gals- is just awful.

Here’s what England should do well. Navy. Culture. Trade (and Gold). Expansion. Navy is fine: England’s unique unit (Sea Dog) is very weak, but the RND and its movement bonus, extra great admiral, and extra production (once you get shipyards), gives England a great Navy. Culture is fine: British Museum is a late bonus, but very strong. But the either two – trade and expansion – are terrible.

This is what’s not working:

• England should have kept extra trade routes. The extra gold from the RND is not that strong, and is very situational. What made England great at trade and gold was having some extra trade routes (and an extra reason to build harbor / commercial hub / city centre triangles). Extra trade routes is unique: other civs, like Egypt, get bonuses to their trade routes; England gets the same trade routes as everyone else, just a few more of them. Trade routes synergise well with England’s other abilities, because it can better trade internationally (because it settles on other continents and can protect sea lanes) and then use those trade routes to generate gold (which helps pay of its navy and melee units), and generate culture and science and improve tourism (which all helps with culture victory); and England can run more internal trade routes which helps with production and overcoming England’s often weaker coastal starts. There was also a huge opportunity for England to synergise with the new game mechanics (eg alliances) by having extra trade routes which has been missed by removing them.

• Pax Brit is both offensive and defensive. England’s MO is both settling on foreign continents, but also capturing cities. Getting a free unit for conquered cities is really key to that – it gives you a free unit just when you need it, to refresh your damaged existing units, and give you a spare unit to garrison in the capture city to preserve loyalty. It’s also the only way to really afford Redcoats given their high base cost and the fact you can’t upgrade them from an earlier unit. Getting units from just settling is much more limited tactically. And getting units from RNDs is confused and not really that useful – if you’re settling late game (which is when Redcoats become available), it will take forever to build your RND.

• Loyalty from RND is weak sauce, and non-sensical. It’s very hard to settle foreign continents as is, and there is not that much advantage doing so: you get +2 gold from your RND (+2 production with a shipyard) and can maybe run a few colonial focused policy cards and or access some unique luxuries. Loyalty from RNDs doesn’t make much sense - seriously, why does England get loyalty from a Harbour? England takes pride in its monarchy and its military (particularly Navy and Airforce). But its harbours? Really? And England’s strength during colonials eras really came from its governors. And the bonus is just not that helpful anyway – your city will likely flip before you build the RNDs, and the bonus is not that huge.

How to fix England (YMMV):

This is my suggestion for fixing England (more or less):

• Trade Routes. I get it: trade route stacking doesn’t make sense any more. First, because trade routes now come from Lighthouses and Markets. Second, because trade routes are a lot more powerful. But England would be more fun, and certainly not overpowered, with just a few extra trade routes. My suggestion: England gets +1 trade route for each continent you have at least one RND on (including your home continent). Make this part of the bonuses of the RND, and keep the other bonuses (extra great admiral point, extra movement, and extra gold on other continents – I’ll get to loyalty in a second). This is not too many extra trade routes (one per continent at most), and by including your home continent it also gives England a small leg up in the early game. If you don’t like that, give England +2 trade routes when they research Mercantlism as part of their UA. If nothing else, please, please make this change.

• Pax Brit. I get it: England can’t get a unit from capturing cities because it doesn’t work with the city flipping / free city / loyalty thing. So please, just start again from scratch with the Leader Ability. My suggestion: Receive a 50% discount on purchasing and upgrading melee units with gold (cannot be stacked with Mercenaries card), and Melee units fighting on foreign continents earn experience 50% faster. Unlock the Redcoat unique unit at Military Science. That would give England a weaker version of Pax Brit, in that you could then buy your ’free’ unit when you either conquer or settle a city. It would also synergise with England’s extra gold from its RND and extra trade routes. If you don’t like that suggestion, that’s fine. Make Pax B something around loyalty and or gold generation. I’m sure they’ll be other (and probably better) suggestions in the comments below. Either way though, please just revamp the leader ability completely – the current solution is just a mess. (If you want someone to have a ‘free unit when settling / building’ something, maybe just make that a pantheon; e.g. Warrior Caste, receive a free anti-cav unit when you build an encampment; or let Georgia get a melee unit when it builds its unique walls.)

• Loyalty. Give England a new Unique Ability “Sun Never Sets”. This gives England the British Museum, which remains unchanged. But it also gives England’s colonial cities an additional +4 loyalty if they garrison a melee unit in the city (and perhaps +2 on your own continent). Red Coats could maybe give a further +2. This would synergise well with Pax Brit (in whatever form it takes).

• Make Colonial Cities better for everyone. Improved luxury resources not on your home continent provide an additional +1 gold after you research Colonialism. This would apply to all Civs. If that’s too powerful, then just make it that your capital earns +1 gold for each different type luxury resource you have not on your home continent, or just have lighthouses and markets not on your home continent generate +1 gold.

Guys and Gals. I’m not pretending to speak for others here a Civ Fanatics or anywhere else. My views here are my own entirely. And my suggested fixes are just my suggestions. Others may disagree with me – some may disagree with me a lot, particularly on my Pax B suggestions.

But. England is my favourite Civ. It’s lots of people’s favourite Civ. Man, I was so looking forward to using England’s extra trade routes and Pax B with the new R&F – alliances, loyalty, all of it. But instead. England has been hit with the nerf bat hard and repeatedly, and now the civ just feels all over the place.

I think you guys are doing a great job, and I know you listen to the community and respect it and Civ's legacy greatly. R&F is awesome. And the various patches always greatly improve the game and are clearly very thoughtful. I'm still pumped that time you made walls give tourism - an idea floated on this forum.

I’m not asking for you to make England super powerful / OP. I just want England to be fun, not gimmicky, open to interesting and different strategies, and feel like England. Please guys. I’ve been really patient. A lot of people have.

And while you’re at it:

Look. If I have your attention. There’s three other small things I’d really like you to fix.

First, making Agoge apply to Anti-Cav was great, but can you please still make anti-cav just a little cheaper? Their cost to power ratio is just terrible, particularly around spears and pikes. You also need to make Knights much more expensive – it’s way too easy to rush Knights. I think exclude Heavy Cav from any policy cards which reduce their production or upgrade costs - an indirect nerf, which would make Heavy Cav more unique (i.e. they're the unit you have to hard build). But alternatively, you could just make Knights specifically more expensive overall.

Second, if Military Tactics is going to be a leaf tech, then please make it more worthwhile researching. Perhaps let it unlock a Trebuchet (which Civ should really have given Trebuchets are like a whole Meme onto themselves – just google “Trebuchet” and “Meme”). Otherwise, have Military Tactics unlock some more general benefit - maybe anti-cav and melee units earn experience faster or something.

Third, please make all of the unique units which don’t upgrade from something else much cheaper and or easier to get (e.g Berserkers, Samurai, the Georgian one etc.). Otherwise it’s just not economical to build them. You can just make them cheaper overall, or make them like Red Coats and have some nifty way to get them for each Civ. E.g. Maybe Japan can buy Samurai with Faith, maybe Norway gets them when it founds a city on the coast, and maybe Georgia gets a free melee unit when it builds its unique wall.

Again, these are just my suggestions.

[Sarah: sorry for tagging you directly, which I'm guessing is a massive internet / social Faux Pas. But I wasn't sure how else to get this on people's radar.]

 

[acluewithout]

Dear Civ Fanatics.

Sorry for the long post above. And sorry if posting like this is a massive Faux Pas. There's a reason my name is acluewithout.

And yes, I know Firaxis haven't actually released the Spring Patch - but that's precisely why I wanted to try to get Firaxis' attention now. [Edit: the announcement video has now been released, see here.]

Please vote if you agree (or disagree) England needs to be improved. Please comment if you have further reasons why you think England needs to be improved, or have other suggestions on how it should be improved, or if you disagree with me and want to explain why. You can also post suggestions for England here too.

 

[bluebutterfly1]

I've always thought the red coat is a funny unique unit, perhaps Churchill should be a second leader and his unique unit is the SAS, replacing spec ops can move after para-drop and is invisible unless next to a unit, has a melee and ranged attack) and can ambush after para dropping giving a attack bonus. not saying it should have all of those abilities perhaps a little op but maybe 1-2 of them. perhaps the move after paradrop and melee attack work best (making it a modern redcoat) basically u could paradrop and take a city in the same turn if your clever with it using your airforce to drop city def first, this is pretty much how the sas operated in ww2 . also Churchill is just awesome would love to see him civ !

 

[Victoria]

+4 loyalty after building an RND in a new city on a new continent 100 turns into the game is a huge joke. Your city will flip before you can even use it unless you get Reyna in there. 9 tiles is a hell of a long way for loyalty to flood. Its like you don't even play the game and just think oooh that's sounds cool, lets do that. England has been continually frigged with from the beginning and she was never any good apart from Pax gave her fun sometimes, and in fact gave he something that really could turn around a game, even an MP game.
I have absaloutely no idea why you could not just have put a simple test in to check it the city take was a major civ and give a unit for that, but no you had to hobble her completely.

Look this game is not that hard to understand. If you have an ability that is strong at the start then they are the best abilities. an RNDY in a useless sea is just rubbish and the golden era harbour thing just does not work. England is rubbish at the start and since nerfing settling overseas its useless in the middle without Pax. At least teddy gets a wildcard which is a handy start. A civ that is not strong at the start needs to be strong elsewhere... like France. English sea start are typically rubbish as well. One could come up with a thousand suggestions how to fix England but they are not listened to anyway, a thousand suggestions because everyone wants a say and something different and I do not blame you for not listening. But at least understand the game you play and the fact that you go ahead and nerf a civ you are going to annoy the hell out of people. You either do it on purpose or are clueless, either way you do not deserve my money anymore

Do it for enough patches and they just uninstall the game. You have 1 day, I do not expect any change, I gave up ages go, just lived in hope.

 

[bluebutterfly1]

I understood today’s patch “buffed” England. But I think the buff is a massive step backwards. I’ll try to clarify in the title and OP.

getting an extra unit from a RND is so so silly !

 

[acluewithout]

It’s just daft. I mean, if I build a harbour, you’d think I’d get a boat not a land unit!?!

Maybe that will be the next England tweak. You get a free naval melee unit when you settle a city or build a RND on a foreign continent. Lots of land locked boats or boats trapped in lakes.

Sadly, my guess at this point is that Firaxis won’t do anything more with England. They tweaked them when the first brought out R&F, again in the March patch and again now. Job done from their POV. Although, of course, they’re actually just more trash now. So job not done. Even if they’ve been sort of “buffed” in the spring patch, it’s just so half cocked and anodyne.

Maybe they’ll be fixed in the next expansion. Maybe we’ll also get an alt leader for England (Elizabeth would be great - the game needs another spy leader to go toe to toe with Catherine of France, and two female leaders for one civ would be awesome). But that’s a year away, and I really don’t have much hope in that.

The Firaxis guys and gals seem like a good bunch. Smart too. But England is somehow not on the right person’s radar. It’s weird that what (I thought) was one of the most popular civs would just keep getting smacked and or ignored like this.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

They are still a lot better than Georgia, but yeah the changes have been real head scratchers.

 

[bluebutterfly1]

It’s just daft. I mean, if I build a harbour, you’d think I’d get a boat not a land unit!?!

Maybe that will be the next England tweak. You get a free naval melee unit when you settle a city or build a RND on a foreign continent. Lots of land locked boats or boats trapped in lakes.

Sadly, my guess at this point is that Firaxis won’t do anything more with England. They tweaked them when the first brought out R&F, again in the March patch and again now. Job done from their POV. Although, of course, they’re actually just more trash now. So job not done. Even if they’ve been sort of “buffed” in the spring patch, it’s just so half cocked and anodyne.

Maybe they’ll be fixed in the next expansion. Maybe we’ll also get an alt leader for England (Elizabeth would be great - the game needs another spy leader to go toe to toe with Catherine of France, and two female leaders for one civ would be awesome). But that’s a year away, and I really don’t have much hope in that.

The Firaxis guys and gals seem like a good bunch. Smart too. But England is somehow not on the right person’s radar. It’s weird that what (I thought) was one of the most popular civs would just keep getting smacked and or ignored like this.

I really don't understand why you just can't say to the program no free units from cities that have flipped loyalty surely its not that hard to programme but the fact they haven't done suggests they can't programme it in for some reason so they changed the ability because, that shows a good level skill. we didn't do it because we wanted but because we couldn't fix it properly. the other issue is changing a skill so fundamentally now when people have got use to playing with it is going to get a lot of negative press and reactions, especially with such a popular civ !

 

[acluewithout]

...you are going to annoy the hell out of people...

Seeing Vicky’s face on the Youtube announcement is really making me cross. And then the cut to Vicky in the video. Like she was upset before and is okay with everything now. Oh dear.

I know the cut to Vicky was meant to be funny. But when this Civ has just been stuffed... again... sigh. It’s feels very on the nose.

Firaxis. There’s a real marketing opportunity here. Give some of these crowd favourite Civs a real overhaul (specifically England, also America), and really tweak the balance on a few others (Norway, Georgia, maybe Spain). Make a big deal of it. Do some videos about it. You’d get a real jump in publicity and sales.

Wishful thinking I know. Totally not going to happen. But. You could even throw in an alt leader for one of these ‘core’ Civs. Elizabeth for England would be great. Two female leaders would be eye catching. Elizabeth is a crowd favourite. Make some jokes around “trade agreement with England”. And she could focus on spies and loyalty from either religion and or spies - see my signature. Another leader that unlocks spies at say castles would be a great foil for catherine.

 

[Weraptor]

I don't know what you are complaining about. You can build some holy sites (early or late, depends on difficulty, other civs in-game and willingness to get religion), build the government building that grants you builders upon settling, reach golden age which lets you buy settlers with faith, settle on a different continent (in an area with some woods), chop harbour district and enjoy 2 free melee units per a settler.

 

[Victoria]

I don't know what you are complaining about. You can build some holy sites (early or late, depends on difficulty, other civs in-game and willingness to get religion), build the government building that grants you builders upon settling, reach golden age which lets you buy settlers with faith, settle on a different continent (in an area with some woods), chop harbour district and enjoy 2 free melee units per a settler.

So another non England player thinking they understand how a civ works they do not use... holy site + harbour = no science or culture. It’s not a hard sum to do.

Screw this, I’m gone.

 

[Weraptor]

If you grow your cities enough, those key district are still manageable.

 

[Flaxton]

Dear Firaxis ( @FXS_Sarah )

I know you just “buffed” England in the Spring Patch. But it’s still not right.

Please fix R&F England again. But for real this time.

Short version: Losing trade route stacking made England much less fun; Pax Brit has then been nerfed badly (melee units only from settling) and now, instead of un-nerfing it, it looks like the Spring Patch only slightly un-nerfed it and made it more confused (melee unit from building a Royal Navy Dockyard); and loyalty for having a Harbour is … not great. It doesn’t help you that much because you don’t get the benefit until you build a harbour, and the bonus isn’t that strong for settling continents mid game anyways. And, I mean, England takes pride in its Navy, Airforce and Military; not actually its harbours…

Please have the RND give +1 extra trade route (max, one per continent you have a RND on). Please let England’s boost loyalty from garrisoned melee units not harbours. And then, for the sake of everyone for whom England is their favourite Civ and has waited patiently for England to be at least ‘okay’, please, please, completely overhaul Victoria’s Leader Ability. (And while you’re at it, maybe boost settling on foreign continents for England and everyone else too.)

What’s wrong: England has been the bastard child of Civ VI from the start. Everyone started with Harbour / Commercial Hub stacking in Vanilla, then you nerfed that. That made England weak, so you gave just England trade route stacking, which was pretty good. In R&F you killed England’s trade routes again – twice, actually, because their Royal Navy Dockyard no longer gave a Trade Route (they needed a Lighthouse for that), and they couldn’t stack trade routes any more either. Then you nerfed Pax Britannia hard. Now you’ve tweaked it again, but in a way that’s – sorry guys and gals- is just awful.

Here’s what England should do well. Navy. Culture. Trade (and Gold). Expansion. Navy is fine: England’s unique unit (Sea Dog) is very weak, but the RND and its movement bonus, extra great admiral, and extra production (once you get shipyards), gives England a great Navy. Culture is fine: British Museum is a late bonus, but very strong. But the either two – trade and expansion – are terrible.

This is what’s not working:

• England should have kept extra trade routes. The extra gold from the RND is not that strong, and is very situational. What made England great at trade and gold was having some extra trade routes (and an extra reason to build harbor / commercial hub / city centre triangles). Extra trade routes is unique: other civs, like Egypt, get bonuses to their trade routes; England gets the same trade routes as everyone else, just a few more of them. Trade routes synergise well with England’s other abilities, because it can better trade internationally (because it settles on other continents and can protect sea lanes) and then use those trade routes to generate gold (which helps pay of its navy and melee units), and generate culture and science and improve tourism (which all helps with culture victory); and England can run more internal trade routes which helps with production and overcoming England’s often weaker coastal starts. There was also a huge opportunity for England to synergise with the new game mechanics (eg alliances) by having extra trade routes which has been missed by removing them.

• Pax Brit is both offensive and defensive. England’s MO is both settling on foreign continents, but also capturing cities. Getting a free unit for conquered cities is really key to that – it gives you a free unit just when you need it, to refresh your damaged existing units, and give you a spare unit to garrison in the capture city to preserve loyalty. It’s also the only way to really afford Redcoats given their high base cost and the fact you can’t upgrade them from an earlier unit. Getting units from just settling is much more limited tactically. And getting units from RNDs is confused and not really that useful – if you’re settling late game (which is when Redcoats become available), it will take forever to build your RND.

• Loyalty from RND is weak sauce, and non-sensical. It’s very hard to settle foreign continents as is, and there is not that much advantage doing so: you get +2 gold from your RND (+2 production with a shipyard) and can maybe run a few colonial focused policy cards and or access some unique luxuries. Loyalty from RNDs doesn’t make much sense - seriously, why does England get loyalty from a Harbour? England takes pride in its monarchy and its military (particularly Navy and Airforce). But its harbours? Really? And England’s strength during colonials eras really came from its governors. And the bonus is just not that helpful anyway – your city will likely flip before you build the RNDs, and the bonus is not that huge.

How to fix England (YMMV):

This is my suggestion for fixing England (more or less):

• Trade Routes. I get it: trade route stacking doesn’t make sense any more. First, because trade routes now come from Lighthouses and Markets. Second, because trade routes are a lot more powerful. But England would be more fun, and certainly not overpowered, with just a few extra trade routes. My suggestion: England gets +1 trade route for each continent you have at least one RND on (including your home continent). Make this part of the bonuses of the RND, and keep the other bonuses (extra great admiral point, extra movement, and extra gold on other continents – I’ll get to loyalty in a second). This is not too many extra trade routes (one per continent at most), and by including your home continent it also gives England a small leg up in the early game. If you don’t like that, give England +2 trade routes when they research Mercantlism as part of their UA. If nothing else, please, please make this change.

• Pax Brit. I get it: England can’t get a unit from capturing cities because it doesn’t work with the city flipping / free city / loyalty thing. So please, just start again from scratch with the Leader Ability. My suggestion: Receive a 50% discount on purchasing and upgrading melee units with gold (cannot be stacked with Mercenaries card), and Melee units fighting on foreign continents earn experience 50% faster. Unlock the Redcoat unique unit at Military Science. That would give England a weaker version of Pax Brit, in that you could then buy your ’free’ unit when you either conquer or settle a city. It would also synergise with England’s extra gold from its RND and extra trade routes. If you don’t like that suggestion, that’s fine. Make Pax B something around loyalty and or gold generation. I’m sure they’ll be other (and probably better) suggestions in the comments below. Either way though, please just revamp the leader ability completely – the current solution is just a mess. (If you want someone to have a ‘free unit when settling / building’ something, maybe just make that a pantheon; e.g. Warrior Caste, receive a free anti-cav unit when you build an encampment; or let Georgia get a melee unit when it builds its unique walls.)

• Loyalty. Give England a new Unique Ability “Sun Never Sets”. This gives England the British Museum, which remains unchanged. But it also gives England’s colonial cities an additional +4 loyalty if they garrison a melee unit in the city (and perhaps +2 on your own continent). Red Coats could maybe give a further +2. This would synergise well with Pax Brit (in whatever form it takes).

• Make Colonial Cities better for everyone. Improved luxury resources not on your home continent provide an additional +1 gold after you research Colonialism. This would apply to all Civs. If that’s too powerful, then just make it that your capital earns +1 gold for each different type luxury resource you have not on your home continent, or just have lighthouses and markets not on your home continent generate +1 gold.

Guys and Gals. I’m not pretending to speak for others here a Civ Fanatics or anywhere else. My views here are my own entirely. And my suggested fixes are just my suggestions. Others may disagree with me – some may disagree with me a lot, particularly on my Pax B suggestions.

But. England is my favourite Civ. It’s lots of people’s favourite Civ. Man, I was so looking forward to using England’s extra trade routes and Pax B with the new R&F – alliances, loyalty, all of it. But instead. England has been hit with the nerf bat hard and repeatedly, and now the civ just feels all over the place.

I think you guys are doing a great job, and I know you listen to the community and respect it and Civ's legacy greatly. R&F is awesome. And the various patches always greatly improve the game and are clearly very thoughtful. I'm still pumped that time you made walls give tourism - an idea floated on this forum.

I’m not asking for you to make England super powerful / OP. I just want England to be fun, not gimmicky, open to interesting and different strategies, and feel like England. Please guys. I’ve been really patient. A lot of people have.

And while you’re at it:

Look. If I have your attention. There’s three other small things I’d really like you to fix.

First, making Agoge apply to Anti-Cav was great, but can you please still make anti-cav just a little cheaper? Their cost to power ratio is just terrible, particularly around spears and pikes. You also need to make Knights much more expensive – it’s way too easy to rush Knights. I think exclude Heavy Cav from any policy cards which reduce their production or upgrade costs - an indirect nerf, which would make Heavy Cav more unique (i.e. they're the unit you have to hard build). But alternatively, you could just make Knights specifically more expensive overall.

Second, if Military Tactics is going to be a leaf tech, then please make it more worthwhile researching. Perhaps let it unlock a Trebuchet (which Civ should really have given Trebuchets are like a whole Meme onto themselves – just google “Trebuchet” and “Meme”). Otherwise, have Military Tactics unlock some more general benefit - maybe anti-cav and melee units earn experience faster or something.

Third, please make all of the unique units which don’t upgrade from something else much cheaper and or easier to get (e.g Berserkers, Samurai, the Georgian one etc.). Otherwise it’s just not economical to build them. You can just make them cheaper overall, or make them like Red Coats and have some nifty way to get them for each Civ. E.g. Maybe Japan can buy Samurai with Faith, maybe Norway gets them when it founds a city on the coast, and maybe Georgia gets a free melee unit when it builds its unique wall.

Again, these are just my suggestions.

[Sarah: sorry for tagging you directly, which I'm guessing is a massive internet / social Faux Pas. But I wasn't sure how else to get this on people's radar.]

I agree with all the comments here. England is a mess in this game, +4 loyalty?? Either it's on empty island (in which case it don't matter) or it's a crowded island in which it's hard enough to get a monument built, let alone a mid game district.

England is an iconic Civ, but it's so poor in CIV VI. I know this is an old thread, but the update didn't help. Please vote to get attention.

 

[Ellerby]

Okay so here are some of my thoughts on England.

First of all I should say that I don't even mind England being a weaker civ. I like the idea of playing the plucky underdog. However they are too weak even for me.

The issues have all been identified and presented far more eloquently then I could present. However I'll still throw my hat into the ring.

In no particular order these are, in my opinion, what hold England back.

Having to go through Astrology to get to RNDY - this messes with your district discounts and prevents certain strategies that otherwise might be fun and useful.

Having their unique district tied to coastal cities. - So I might get what, 3/4 of them in an average game. This in itself is not the problem. The fact that the bonuses they provide are so weak is the problem. If I'm going to be so limited on how many RNDY I can have they should provide much more bang for their buck.

Being a naval civ - And not even being that much better at it than other civs to boot. Being a naval civ doesn't really seem to mean anything right now. You don't get anything for having control of the seas, and that's a shame. Maybe there could be a landmass on each map that is gauranteed to be totally uninhabited and resource rich. Maybe this would actually create some intersting naval warfare and reward investing in naval techs, as people rush toward and fight over claiming these resources.

The general poor quality of coastal cities
I'm not saying you can't get a good coastal city, but most of them are proper pants. So many things have to line up right for you to be happy with your coastal start. For example having a reef in a river mouth totally screws with the adjacency bonuses for having the City Centre/RNDY/Commercial Hub triangle. Seriously why can't you remove reef?

And of course you might not even get a coastal start in the first place.

Continents - I've played plenty of games now where I've settled 8 cities before I've even found another continent.

Overall playing England most of the time feels like playing a civ that has no bonuses. You're trying to do all the same things that every other civ is doing and are just worse at doing them then everybody else. Their bonuses are all super situational and not even that powerful when things do line up right. You're not particularly rewarded for playing this civ the way it was apparently designed to be played. In fact quite often it feels like your being punished.

I'm sure I could go on but I'll leave it here for now.

What I will say is that I have completely given up on trying to make them work and now play as Sparta most of the time instead.

Which is a shame. There is content in the game that people have put hard work into that just isn't getting used because of how poor it is.

I'm an eternal optimist though and blessed with a sunny disposition. I'm of the opinion that sooner or later England will be fixed. They are simply that bad, that they can't be ignored forever.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Meh!
Just leave it. Every time they change/fix the balance other bugs/issues/exploits pop up elsewhere. It's not worth it.

FYI I played a pretty awesome game as England winning an easy Deity domination before turn 300 (on a Classical start). Huge TSL Earth map. (Actually it was The Ancient World from the UN Maps Pack mod).

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Yeah England isn't even that bad - all this fuss over one civ out of 20+. Not all of them are going to be home runs. They are still pretty fun to play IMO.

 

[Ellerby]

Meh!
Just leave it. Every time they change/fix the balance other bugs/issues/exploits pop up elsewhere. It's not worth it.

FYI I played a pretty awesome game as England winning an easy Deity domination before turn 300 (on a Classical start). Huge TSL Earth map. (Actually it was The Ancient World from the UN Maps Pack mod).

Well I guess we won't need anymore patches then.

I know you can win with England. You can win with anybody. I don't think that's a good rebuttal though.

I can eat my beans on toast with a cocktail stick. But I'd rather use a knife and fork.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Well I guess we won't need anymore patches then.

Don't be silly. There are still lots of bugs & issues in Civ VI/R&F to address. I'm so glad they've addressed/fixed the game breaking ones I encountered.

That was my second game since the Spring patch and no major game breaking bugs. Thank God!

What was an issue is loyalty, especially on TSL maps. In this game (see screenshot) The Netherlands, Macedon, France and Poland's caps all fell to loyalty. LMAO.

In fact London was haemorrhaging loyalty until I built the govt. plaza (with the help of Magnus chop). It's a bit hit or miss for England on TSL maps esp. if Scotland is in the game

But after The Netherlands fell, England just snowballed. R&F is more rise than fall. It snowballs harder and faster now even more than before.

Firaxis need to still sort out loyalty.

 

[Jarms48]

Victoria's bonuses are just all over the place, and with no economic bonuses at all now. The extra trade routes made them very adaptable. Let's spitball some ideas:

Pax Britannica:
- Founding or conquering a city on a continent other than your home continent grants +2 Gold per turn in that city (representing colonial taxes). Gain the Redcoat unique unit when the Military Science technology is researched.

Royal Navy Dockyard:
- Removed +2 Gold Gold when built on a foreign continent. +1 Trade Route capacity for every Royal Navy Dockyard built on a unique continent (including the home continent).
- +1 Movement for all units built in Dockyard.

Redcoat:
- Can upgrade from Musketmen.
- Can upgrade into Infantry.

Sea Dog:
- Remove capturing adjacent enemy naval units.
- Earns Culture from kills.

The additional gold allows Victoria to essentially move into any victory condition, via purchasing tiles / buildings / units / swapping policies. The changes to Redcoats actually allows Victoria to do some timing pushes with their unique unit, whilst the additional gold can pay for the upgrade and upkeep costs. The extra trade routes also support the adaptability, whilst still not as powerful as vanilla Civ 6 it's a nice middle ground.

 

[dunkleosteus]

I feel harbours are a weak district overall. The harbour buildings aren't specialized, they seem to be unable to decide if the district is supposed to generate food, production or gold. Because the number of districts you can build is limited, building a harbour means not building something else, and when trade routes are so lucrative, that usually means not building a commercial hub. However, harbours are overall worse than commercial hubs. Com hubs give Great Merchant points, which are still probably the strongest great person in the game even after losing the free policy slot. Economic city states also give big bonuses to commercial hub buildings while there are no city state bonuses for harbours.

If Firaxis really wants RND or harbours in general to be good, they need to address that last point. If RND gave great merchant points in addition to great admiral points, I'd be less opposed to building them. Also, 1/3 of commercial and 1/3 of military city states should be for harbours instead of commercial hubs and encampments. Harbour-military city states would give production bonuses towards units, etc. to harbours and Harbour-commercial city states would give gold bonuses.