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FIRAXIS - tone down AI! stop cheating!

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Shaar, Nov 4, 2001.

  1. Axraxes

    Axraxes Chieftain

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    Sarcastro, you beat me to it, but, you are right - that is the point I was trying to make - that a game should be playable out of the box. To expect the average consumer to have to go to such extremes as writing their own video driver, or tweaking their registry to get your product to work properly is a bit farfetched. I realize this is a side-issue to the focus of this thread, and my apologies.

    The problems many people are having are with decent pieces of hardware - not old crappy stuff that the average Joe would have replaced. So, is the combat system working as Firaxis says it is? Hard to say, but it makes it easier to question if it is when they shipped a game with several other problems. I am not one of those who think that there are far too many hardware platforms out there to expect that software companies just won't be able to make their product 'good' enough to play on all (or most) of them. Blizzard is an example of a company that does this on a consistent basis - so I know it can be done. When problems come up like what Firaxis is seeing with CivIII that tells me that they didn't do all their homework and were more concerned about meeting their ship date, than the quality of their product - shame.
     
  2. Anatari

    Anatari Chieftain

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    I agree that the combat system is a little bit whacked, but you just have to adjust. In my experience, the luck goes both ways. I have had times where my modern tank(16 attack) loss to a musketman. But I have also gotten lucky and had the samething happen. In my experience, the overall trend of my battles are on par with how advanced the units are.

    However a comment about artillery pieces: In my experience they are worthless. How can you say you bombard a city for a few turns and then attack with more success. After each time you bombard the next turn all the units in the city is healed. Since artilleries can't destroy units you have to attack on the same turn you bombard. I might be missing something, but that is what I experienced in an attempt to use bombards against cities. I have experimented with a mass amount of bombers before...

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7625

    The only advantage is the range and ease of deployment to destroy terrain improvements. Perhaps if the precision bombing feature worked, they would be worth something.
     
  3. flyingcursor

    flyingcursor Chieftain

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    I hear this on every board for every game I've ever played.

    Warcraft: Dragons are unfair. IT's not balanced because I lost.

    Starcraft: The zergs are too powerful. It's not balanced because I lost.

    AoK: Teuton Town Center rushes are unfair! The game is not balanced because I lost.

    Combat Mission: You shouldn't be able to pick Tiger tanks against Stuarts. The game is unfair because I lost.

    UT: Rockets are unfair because I lost.


    Well all I can say is I always thought I was a rotten chess player but now I see the truth. The game is unbalanced because I always lose!
     
  4. TrailblazingScot

    TrailblazingScot I was kittenOFchaos

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    Chess is unbalanced because:

    1. they move first
    2. you have to move first

    ;)

    I know your feelings...too many complaints of it being too difficult WHEN WILL MY COPY ARRIVE :cry:
     
  5. Peteus

    Peteus All good things...

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    Anatari, you're missing the point. Artillery must be used immediately before the attack, as part of your combined arms strategy. Bombard a well-defended city with sufficient artillery (5+ pieces), and you will find 1-hp infantry in a size 6 city significantly easier to root out than 4-hp infantry in a size 7+ city, it goes without saying!

    Bombarding in previous turns is only useful for cutting supply lines for the defenders, and possibly destroying some key city improvements.
     
  6. Dearmad

    Dearmad Dead weight

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    Thank you for the words of sanity Peteus...

    And AXRAXIS: playable out of the box is different from winnable out of the box... sheesh take some time to learn how to win and you WILL win.

    I'm seriously hoping Firaxis will look over the suggestions I made for improving the game and fix the AI's use and continual manufacture of outdated units! The Ai is better but still a little weak in some critical areas. I HATE seeing British swordsmen fight alongside British tanks... it breaks my heart to have to slaughter them...
     
  7. Axraxes

    Axraxes Chieftain

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    Dear Dearmad, I don't believe I ever mentioned anything about whether I believed the game was winnable or not, so I have no clue what your reply is supposed to mean. FYI I've been playing Civ since its first inception and think I can figure out how to win - not that I've really had a chance yet, since I haven't had a chance to complete my first game yet :) I hate when real life gets in the way of gaming!
     
  8. Dan Magaha FIRAXIS

    Dan Magaha FIRAXIS Firaxian

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    Just a quick FYI -- if you are reloading a saved game and trying the SAME combat repeatedly, you will get THE SAME result repeatedly. The random number generator is not "re-seeded" during game loads; this prevents (at least, to a certain degree) the "save-and-reload" cheat. So it's really no surprise the person who started this thread lost thirty times in a row by re-loading, that was intentional.

    Reloading and doing something differently that requires a random number and THEN coming back to that combat could yield a different outcome, as could quitting the game and starting it back up again, reloading and then attempting combat.

    Dan
     
  9. Vlad_The_Impale

    Vlad_The_Impale Chieftain

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    What is even more beyond me is how hard it is to get

    (A) any decent amount of resources (and I have had
    control of the 2 whole land masses in 2 games)
    (B) the coruption system is horse****, if you get stuck
    with the misfourtune of starting with your capital
    at one end of a landmass you are screwed for much
    expansion, it is even worse if it happens to be a starting
    position on a coast line.

    The corruption system HAS to be fixed, I mean are the guys at firaxis so cynical as to believe that 80 - 90 % of the "possible" tax dollors in california are getting syphoned off just because the capital is in washington? I mean it is almost impossible to maintain a sustained ground war due to the corruption of the cities you capture, you can not keep them happy or produce any useful items whatsoever. I have played Civilization since I bought the original game on 5 1/4 floppies and I have never seen a coruption system so screwed up, ever! I have always played my games at monarch (or higher) and I just can not get over the way things are in this version of the game. Great wonders are very hard to obtain, always seems the AI finishes just one turn before you do, the corruption system is seriously flawed and I am not to thrilled with losing tanks to horsemen in the open plains (spear tips must be REAL sharp) anyway I do like some of the new features, I think they should have brought more of the diplomatic options over from SMAC (like interceding on behalf of another country)
     
  10. Dearmad

    Dearmad Dead weight

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    No it doesn't Vlad- just make sure you get We love the --- Days going and corruption floors out.

    As to resources, I think a good solution would be to make "even spread" or "sorta clumpy" distributions as options. I prefer it sorta clumpy so I have to figure out ways to get what I want when I don't have it and sometimes end up with a monopoly that is just plain powerful to use diplomatically against the world. When you own ALL of 4 luxeries in the world, you control the happiness of the entire world population. You get LOADS of $$$ from the AI as they get desperate for their elephant teeth. :)

    Hiya DAN! Thanks for chekcing up on us here in the nursery!:p
     
  11. kamosa

    kamosa Chieftain

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    I like the resource clumping as well! The only problem is that the computer has a bad synergy between the dipomacy and the clumping. IE you end up for an entire ages taking bad trades and avoiding conflicts, just to maintain the basic resources to keep in the game.

    It's my belief that either the resources should be distributed widely, or the computer should accept even trades for them. Not giving you access to resources and then screwing you for your best advances and all your cash isn't fun or balanced.
     
  12. Colonel Kurtz

    Colonel Kurtz Chieftain

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    I have to say I am loving Civ3 so far. People have been moaning for years about rubbish AI in strategy games, and with good cause, now a game comes along with decent AI, and a game system that means you have to think carefully about who to attack, the think strategically while you attack them, and still they moan.

    What would actually satisfy people like that? God knows. The days of steamrollering over an enemy civ are gone, and I for one am glad they are.
     
  13. Dearmad

    Dearmad Dead weight

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    Hey, I ain't moaning! I for one think the AI is a pushover in diplomacy... especially when it comes to luxuries... I'd like them to up it a notch or two.
     
  14. Beam

    Beam Beat 'm up Scotty! Retired Moderator

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    Dan, thanx for your reply.

    My question is, how random is the game then, i.e. will it "remember" random settings for a given combat? Even if a completely different sequence of events is started? What if I..... uh oh......., should have finished reading your post.... Has it ever been any different?
     
  15. Shaar

    Shaar Chieftain

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    Dan, thank you for replying.
    Two points:
    #1 - prevent cheating against who? against the AI?!?!?!? But it's MY game, I can do whatever I want. If I choose to load a billion times, that's my choice... besides, I can always close the game and restart. Which bring up point
    #2 - there would not be a need for loading if the AI was fair. As it stands, combat is skewed in favor of the AI by 30-50%, no maybes. There is such a thing as statistics, you know. Strategy goes out the door when I can not expect to predict a battle with a reasonably fair amount of accuracy. Instead, I look at my stats, I look at his, and then... I hold my breath and HOPE that I win.
    Sorry, but that is just sad. All the little kids who posted defending the "fairness" of the combat system have nothing to back up their argument. I backed up mine with testing (the reloading thing was a side note).
     
  16. Anatari

    Anatari Chieftain

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    To Peteus and Dearmad:

    Very true, and from my experience, I still think they are worthless. If you had 10 land offensive units with (2 movement preferably) instead of those 5 artillery pieces and 5 land offensive units you could weaken those infantry just as effectively if not more. Artillery pieces often miss or destory city improvements while land offensive units will almost always damage or even destory the defending unit. In addition, regular land units are much more versatile than art pieces with no defense and no offense.

    Also another thought on the combat system that probably has been said before. I think that one of the reasons they removed the firepower variable is because of the addition of resources. They wanted to give civs that don't have access to specific resources to build more advanced units a fighting chance (through luck).
     
  17. mote

    mote Chieftain

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    flyingcusor

    Love the chess reference. :D
     
  18. Dearmad

    Dearmad Dead weight

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    Shaar- has PBEM ever occured to you? This is a typical way of at least LIMITING cheating then.

    The other way is to delete the turn file as you play it, but that risks losing the original file if your HD crashes mid-turn, etc... before you save the outcome.
     
  19. WhittyMike

    WhittyMike Chieftain

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    Reported comment of one Highlander to another during Dunkirk evacuation:

    "If the English surrender too, it's going to be a long war!"

    :soldier:
     
  20. The Ripper

    The Ripper ETERNAL PEACE BRINGER

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    In Civ2 to take a 6-8 pop city with a archer and 2 spearman I needed 2-3 catapults,losing them and 2 legions,often losing the first...
    And no chance to attack in a different way without waiting for stronger units(waiting in this way for my opponent to get stronger...)
    Now we can use catapults without losing them,use armies to avoid the lost of other units...
    Try to think that an isolate attack is an act of madness(that would be realistic...)
    What about academies,are they useless?

    Corruption...
    In civ2 corruption was ridicolous,simply a name
    Now we can understand the difficulty in getting a world empire or for certain civs to get an empire at all ...
    Almost all the empire in history were made by commercial civs in the game..try to give to your civ choice a sense...
    Persians weren't so good in managing an empire,also germans..
    And you complain because you can see how much you lose,but corruption is a real problem,have you ever thought to the real production of europe and america w/o corruption...
    A lot more than now..
    Corruption also represents the local powers,political and economical who stop or slow down your planes of progress because they are content with their earnings in the actual situations,think to South America...
    Corruption is realistic,high corruption is the reality...
     

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