Fire Power, Hit Points, Adjusted Attack and Defensive strength.

WildPony

Warlord
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
284
Location
Southern California, USA
I have been working towards creating an "adjusted" attack and defensive strength chart based upon exactly how hit points and firepower affect each unit. I did a quick search for this topic and came up empty.

Some basics that i am convinced of:

1) Firepower and Hit points seem to be applied equally to both attack and defense (meaning: firepower is not strictly for the attacker and hp is not strictly for the defender). One example of this is the Musketeer with 3 attack, 3 defense and 2hp. He attacks and defends equally. Another example is the Mighty Battleship, 12 attack, 12 defense, 4hp, 2fp... and these also attack and defend equally.

2. A 2nd HP does not double the "adjusted" defense (or attack strength), rather it seems to modify it by about +33%-+65%. Example: if the 2nd hp of the musket doubled the overall defense, it would become 6 (or 9 vet) yet catapults (6 attack or 9 vet) vet to vet or non-vet to non-vet easily crush unfortified grassland muskets.

..... A 2nd FP does not double adjusted attack or defense either. Again it modifies it in some amount, and the modification seems to be higher than the hp modification, maybe +50%- +80%. My example for this is in the attacking power of Artillery vs the attacking power of Armor. Both have 10 attack, Armor has 1fp and 3hp (2 extra hp), Artillery has 2fp and 2hp (one extra fp + one extra hp). If the FP and HP adjustment were equal, and were applied equally to both attack and defense, then i would theorize that armor and artillery should attack with an equal "adjusted" attack strength. However, in a game i am enjoying vs. Lry and with consequent tests i have performed, it is clear that Artillery attacks are significantly stronger than that of Armor.

I realize of course that veteranship, non-veteranship, forts, fortifying, terrain, sea vs. land, Sea units defending cities, Air vs. forts... and other modifiers exist, but to keep it simple and isolated, let us please stay focused strictly on how hp and fp affect this adjusted number as I am interested in isolating the exact impact fp and hp have on overall strength.

Several of you have conducted masterful research in many aspects of the game. Is this one such area?

As a 2nd and separate part of this question, i know the civopedia to be inaccurate in several places. Here it is ok to consider all of the other defensive factors . Has anybody researched whether forts are in fact doublers, or might they be x 1.5? I am nearly certain pikes are x2 vs mounted (or + 100% if you will), not the +50% mentioned in civopedia. Are there any other defensive factors that are actually contrary to that which is written within the game? Walls seem to be x3, terrain factors seem to be as indicated... but does fortifying a unit actually test out to be a x 1.5 modifier? (And does it take effect immediately [in multiplayer and in single player if different], or is it necessary to be fortified for one full turn before the x 1.5 applies?).

Lastly, are all defensive modifiers multiplied together, or are certain factors multiplied and others added?...If they are an added +50%, is the 50% based upon the original unit value before applying veteranship, or is it applied to the veteran value of the unit (and/or any other factors first). Ever noticed how effective vet elephants are vs. vet phalanx's fortified in grass river cities? 6 attack (4 x 1.5 vet) should be ineffective vs 2x1.5(vet)x1.5 (fortified) x1.5 (river) =6.75, but it isn't! Is a vet phalanx in this situation a 6.75, or is it more like 2+1(vet)+1(fortified)+1(river)=5? Or if the modifiers are added, but the +50% is based upon the veteran value of the unit, could it be 3 (vet) + 1.5 (fortified) + 1.5 (river) = 6?... or could there be some other mysterious application of the modifiers? I am not seeking answers strait out of the civopedia since it is known that there are several of inerrancies therein. I seek rather valid data affirmed thru brilliant research. Thanks in advance.
 
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Mercator

Emperor
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WildPony

Warlord
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Messages
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Southern California, USA
QUOTE=Mercator;7463022]Indeed it is. Try these...

A complete description of the combat formula:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22856

A combat probability calculator in Excel implementing the above formula:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22704

And, more generally, Civ2 reference:
http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/cz045662/civ2/glindex2.htm[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the good tip Mercator. I started reading through some of these posts. I know there is a "probability of victory calculator" where values can be entered each time and u get the % of likelihood that u will win a particular battle. But does anybody know if a quick reference single page cheat sheet of approximated "modified" attack strength and modified defense strength exists? ... where fire power and hit points are factored in for a rough estimated adjusted value? ie: horse attacks with 2, catapult with 6, musketeer (here's where it gets tricky) with 4? 4.5? 5? Armor with 25? 30? 35? Artillery with 30? 35? 40? Stealth bomber with 50? Howitzer with 60? Battleship vs. other ships with 75?

And the same for raw grassland unfortified defensive units?

I understand, or so it seems, that the adjusted attack value will vary based upon what it is attacking since the way hit points and firepower work seem to be modified based upon the strength of the attacker vs. the strength of the defender. If that is the case i would be interested in the average adjusted attack value and the average adjusted defensive value for each unit and again, not accounting for other complications such as the reduced overall attach strength of a ship attacking a land unit.

Somebody in this bunch must have produced such a thing! :wavey:
 

Prof. Garfield

Deity
Supporter
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Messages
3,845
Location
Ontario
Try this:

A=attack value of attacking unit
X=(HP+FP-1) for attacking unit
D=defense value of defending unit
Y=(HP+FP-1) for defending unit

Probability of attacking unit win:
AX/(AX+DY)

Probability of defending unit win:
DY/(AX+DY)

I make no guarantees for these formulas, they were developed rather quickly, and it is very likely that I have miscalculated the effect of HP and FP. Essentially, calculate the probability of each unit winning a round, then multiply it by the "bonus" HP and FP. Use results as new attack and defense values and re-calculate the battle odds. The idea is that units with greater HP and FP can lose a greater portion of the combat rounds and still come out victorious.
 

CharlieChuck

Prince
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
305
Location
england
Have a look at 'Kobayashi Battle Outcome Simulator' in the download section, it's an excel spreadsheet that predicts the outcomes of attacks given different parameters. You should be able to follow the spreadsheet through, to see the difference FP and HP make.

there was athread about 6 month to a year ago where this was discussed and, as far as I remember, it appeared a rookie dragoon was more powerful than a vet crusader. It may have been in a best/worst wonder thread talking about the effect of Leonardo's.
 
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