Fire use - heating, colonial use of materials

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by modmod, Aug 9, 2021.

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  1. modmod

    modmod Warlord

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    Post a new topic in regarding this.
    Do not know about similar idea, if there was something like that then sorry.

    So thing come up in connection with permafrost coal see HERE.

    1. Fireplaces for light/ heating:
    Right now colonist are need food in each turn but firewood/ heating is not considered.
    Off course there is a neglectable need in tropical areas - except in deserts where at night temperature can fall drastically.

    So the base idea of how much wood or coal (or valuable wood - if there are nothing else) needed:
    • Tropical: 0
    • Temperate: 1 / 3 citizen (+ 1 base)
    • Cold: 1/ 2 citizen (+2 base) -> same can be for deserts
    • Extreme cold (if there is permafrost plot in city radius): 1/ 1 citizen (+2 base)
    Deserts: if there is at least one plot in city radius
    Hot desert (only at night needs heating) -> same as temperate
    Rocky desert (steppe) -> ssame as cold (as night + winter needs).

    But what can be the effect when no materials for heating?
    • Citizens can froze to death -> well that sounds too extreme (probably only if they cannot heat for 5+ turns)
    • Strong negative health effect -> more likely
    • Mild negative happiness
    Makes wood more valuable/ essential, also a way to "waste" valuable coal (or valuable wood) if there are no firewood.
    Also keeps those areas less suitable for settle -> avoid settlements crowded borderlands.

    2. When multiple yields consumed gets implemented:
    Wood can be used for many production from smiths (tool, weapon) till rum/ other alcohol making.

    3. Colonial upkeep:
    Probably also can get space in this topic.
    Means what kind of materials can be needed for settlement maintance?
    I mean outside the domestic market.
    Also comes from the possibility of the large number of small settlement -> to reduce that.
    But in that case my tired self lack of concrete concept, more like avait a branstorming from others right now.
     
  2. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    If I understand you right you want to make it harder to create and run lots of small settlements?
    That does not make sense.
    In the timeframe for around 200 years most settlements were started as villages and grew slowly.
    Small villages with lots of space around them with resources can easily be selfsustainable. Large Cities on the other hand should not be able to feed themselves or to log enough wood or other resources to run their large industries without imports in the late game.

    So it should be hard to create really large cities, but it should not be hard to create lots of small settlements (except for the price of a settler or for villages in harsh terrain).
     
  3. modmod

    modmod Warlord

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    Yes - that is the base intent.

    True when we talk about real (and small) villages.

    1. Materials:
    But as it in the game even relative small settlements can have larger buildings (like a town hall even if there are just 5 population) or 1-2 hight class production building.
    And even if for example there are stone deposits/ clay pits makes sense they hardly upkeep the quality of those buildings without import or professionals (which are more likely have in cities - as there are all professionals can turn up). A small village can be self sustaining in low quality. Exactly what they are lack in are specialisation/ professionals.
    Same stands for tools: they can make some low quality but to have proper one they need either import or a professional who makes it for them, or buy in the nearby city (basically also import).

    This professional/ specialised city VS low quality self-sustaining rural was true even in the middle ages.
    Difference was: opposed with the game in real world a small village simply did not have hight quality buildings (or if yes then the nobility or church or the one who had a manson there do take care of that -> with either professionals or import -> so the same).

    Also while any city have a big influx of materials where often can "fall something down from a truck" in case of villages this is rare as they are not that frequent in trade in a logistical sense.

    2. Administration/ governance: possibly gold cost
    Also there are difficulties to properly run administration, tax collection, governance in rural areas/ with lots of small villages/ in low population areas.
     
  4. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    That was actually already the case in older RaR releases:
    • Tools and Blades needed just Iron Ore. (As now)
    • But Guns and Cannons needed both Iron Ore and Lumber. (Now they just need Tools again as in Vanilla.)
    -----

    I wonder why that was reverted again. :dunno:
    (Did not even notice until now.)

    Maybe there were some AI reasons. :think:

    But actually I had introduced it because I did not want AI to waste its Tools. (Needed for Buildings and Pioneers.)
    Maybe wasting its Lumber is more problematic though. (Because it needs it for Hammers to construct Buildings.)

    -----

    So yes, we could make it like this:
    • Tools and Blades needed just Iron Ore. (As now)
    • But Guns and Cannons needed both Iron Ore and Coal. (Now they just need Tools again as in Vanilla.)
    This would also allow us to completely get rid of "Gunpowder". :think:
    (Just wanted it to do something with "Coal".)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  5. modmod

    modmod Warlord

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    Well for guns and cannons that is real when needs tools.
    So if safely can add multiple yields for production I plan to make them require iron ore + coal + tools.
    Tools and blades either Y number of coal or Y x2 number of wood.

    Quality ironworks prefer coal.
    Believed that was the base reason for that raw material.
     
  6. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    My guess would be that the reason was that the AI tended to chop down each and every forest and then run out of lumber, so failed to produce more than 1 hammer in each city later...
     
  7. FlaviusBelisarius

    FlaviusBelisarius Chieftain

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    I like the heating idea in principle and I have had similar ideas myself with much more than just lumber for heating.

    The main issue I think here is the rough quantization of people in the game. It makes resource allocation inflexible for smaller villages (just having a few colonists allows equally few professions being active). Consequently, more micromanagement would be required to keep additional needs met.

    How to overcome this? I am not sure. It might be nice to have early game with different rules than the middle game - then survival micromanagement in the early stage with just a few settlements would be acceptable in my mind. This is hardly realistic for implementation though.
     
  8. modmod

    modmod Warlord

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    @FlaviusBelisarius

    Not that much about hardcore survival.
    Well I am a great fan of (my modded version of) Banished, but this game cannot became similar, nor have any intent for try to create such micromanagement.
     
  9. devolution

    devolution Prince

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    Interesting, I was not aware that muskets were produced with lumber and ore back "in the days". I think that it would eventually be easier for the AI to avoid having to consume tools to create muskets since tools have so many competing use-cases. One of the earliest issues that I fixed back in RaR 2.7 was that the AI was not able to correctly deal with 2 input yields so I had to teach it to do so, thus the AI is now able to produce dyed clothes in a sensible manner (the only yield that required 2 inputs atm). I can't see why it would not work for lumber and ore.
    Note that it would be far to generous to be able to produce a musket from a single ore + lumber so we'd have to implement @Nightinggale 's proposal of allowing a ratio of output/input yields. Maybe 2 ore + 2 lumber -> 1 musket (or require even more input yields) ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
  10. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    4 Input Yields for 1 Output Yield ?
    That is pretty hefty. :think:

    But well, once we have the System of @Nightinggale we may discuss what we do with it.
    (But I need to finish branch "Plains" first before I start branch "Yields".)
     
  11. devolution

    devolution Prince

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    Remember how easy it is to harvest lumber and ore by the bucket load. An expert working these plots often yield a dozen or so of yield units, and then one doesn't even need a blacksmith!
     
  12. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    Casting metal (iron and bronze) requires heating up the metal. Charcoal was used because it burns 400 °C hotter than burning the wood directly. Alternatively sea coal could be used. Iron Gorge in England started using sea coal after they noticed they cut down the forest faster than it grew back up. I'm not sure precisely which year it started, but England had exported coal to Denmark for years by 1650, which Denmark used for a cannon foundry. I don't know if or how much sea coal was used in the new world during the WTP era, but it wouldn't surprise me if somebody here can find out.

    Another valid argument for adding lumber requirement is the fact that gunpowder is 1/3 charcoal. In fact the pressure comes purely from burning charcoal, which expands in the same way as burning gasoline expands and powers a car. The other components in gunpowder are there as support as they release oxygen to make the charcoal burn faster and sulfur, which burns very quickly to start the fire and spread it to make all the charcoal catch fire at once instead of waiting for the flames to work their way through the charcoal.

    It would seem that an "engine" to support a setup like this is my next project. More and more ideas shows up, which makes use of it.
     
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  13. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    Is the basic problem not the same? Even if the AI would not need tools but ore to produce muskets - and so would not use up it´s precious stock of tools that is needed for building - it will use up ore and ore is needed for the production of tools, too. The competing demands are still there, just a step before.
     
  14. Warmoonger

    Warmoonger Chieftain

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    No argument against the logic, but it doesn't make the game more fun.

    The problem with this is you lose sight of the simple fun of resource management. A line needs to be drawn somewhere and for me, this is too much.
     
  15. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    No, it is not. :nope:

    "Tools" are much more difficult for AI than "Iron Ore".

    Iron Ore is one step:
    It simply mines it by a Profession.
    (Easy decision.)

    Tools is three steps:
    It first needs to mine Iron Ore by a Profession, then it needs to build a Building, then it needs to transform Ore into Tools instead of selling it in Europe.
    (1 easy and 2 difficult decisions.)

    ----

    The more decisions AI has to make the more difficult a Yield is to handle for it.
    So the longer the chain of actions the worse AI will do with it.

    ----

    Summary:

    Something like
    Ore + Lumber ---> Guns

    Is normally easier than:
    Ore --> Tools --> Guns

    ----

    Understanding AI in computer games is difficult.
    There are currently maybe 3 modders around that do for Civ4Col.
     
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  16. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    If you are talking about "Heating":
    (Because this thread has become mixed with AI discussion.)

    Personally I agree and I am not going to implement something like "Heating" myself and I would not want to have it in WTP core mod.
    (There are too many reasons for me against it: Most importantly gameplay and AI.)

    But if another modder wants to implement and share it with community, why not. :dunno:
     
  17. CptBadger

    CptBadger Warlord

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    Yeah while its technically accurate, I don't feel like it adds to the game, and if we're going to do this, then we would theoretically/ have/ to provide clothing or people will freeze, and well /have/ to provide tools for every single building (because they didn't build that blacksmith house with their teeth), and that gets into a level of specificity that detracts from gameplay. I've always kinda just taken the concept of "food" as "goods required for basic existence." Your clothing, heating needs, miscellaneous medicines, and simple tools to me would all fall under food, as the only yield /required/ for colonists to survive.

    This sounds like a lot of work for an immersion payoff that doesn't improve gameplay. If it became a vote I'd vote no.
     
  18. modmod

    modmod Warlord

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    Clothing did not come up because of the simple reality folks in that time rarely had more than 2 set of clothes one for cold, one for warm temperature. Children can have more sets as they grow and old ones became too small for them.

    As for medicine that will most likely turn up in the health overhaul.
     

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