First attempt at Prince--need advice!

[eewallace]

I've just started my first prince game, after finally managing to win all victory conditions on noble.

I've started as Darius, prince, medium fractal map, normal speed, standard number of opponents (7 I think?), with no tech brokering.

The start position looked nice. Here's the problem, though. I'm on a penninsula (room for 5, maybe 6 cities) that is cut off by mountains. Nice food resources, and horses fortunately. The bad news is no copper or iron.

I guess the good news is that it is very good for defense. But I've never been good with isolated starts--I count alot on shared religions, tech trading and resource trading.

Is this even winnable for a newbie prince player? If so, any suggestions welcome!

 

[grandad1982]

My advice? Join in the next nobles club game or play some old ones! Despite the name we welcome all levels as its about learing together. Also its a lot of fun sharing a map.

Seriously though without checking your save I'd say "6 cities? Defensible penisular? Cultural victory!" Also check out rolo's Statagy article on isolated starts. Lots of good stuff.

Edit. if you have some good food victory should alway be possible at prince level. Food>production>victory.

 

[eewallace]

Thanks. I did follow all of Orion's homeschool on noble games a few months back, and learned alot.

If I manage 6 cities and 2 religions (I'd have to beeline confucianism then add one of the later ones, I think), I might be able to pull off a cultural victory. I was thinking maybe space race, which I've managed from an isolated start at lower levels, but I think I'm likely to be out-teched on prince. (Don't know who my opponents are yet. I suppose they could all be backwards warmongers who will concentrate on wiping each other out!)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If it's just a peninsula blocked off by mountains...just go around! Sailing is a cheap tech that comes so early it's silly...and all you need is ONE galley...! Put a military unit or two on it as your settler/worker builds, shuttle them across, then go back and get the settler and worker. Add more workers/settlers/military as needed this way. Mountains don't change the fact that it's the same continent, so you won't be paying colony expenses or anything either.

If you are truly isolated, then you'll use minimal defenses while building up economy. Get cities up quickly, and if you have some good food resources whip out monuments/granaries/libraries and either cottage it up or do the SE if that's your thing (as darius, I'd go cottages). Of course if you aren't isolated, you might want an extra galley or two to move troops as they are produced, but you really don't need that many for short island hopping or mountain workarounds! Unless I'm invading straight into enemy borders (I'm one of the few people that seems to like doing this with galleys), 2 always seems enough for me for just shuttling units, easily.

You want optics fairly soon, but I don't usually recommend straight beelining it over currency/col. Often I run an engineer off the forge or use a GE generating wonder to get me one, then use it to bulb machinery, which is a major beaker-heavy tech en route to optics...doing this lets me tech along the top path without losing too much time.

Also useful after optics is getting guilds (which if you're going down the Lib path that this point you can usually just trade for), because then workshops equal mines when you're in caste, meaning you can actually make production cities anywhere that has food...very useful on otherwise hammer-poor starts.

Anyway, optics will let you explore the world and find everyone. Try to find everyone before tech trading so you don't piss the world off. I will say that on prince it's easily possible to stay in FRONT of the AI in techs despite isolation, as long as you get enough cities/manage them well. I can often manage a strong enough tech lead on monarch that I can invade with cannons/grenadiers while the AI is medieval or has only muskets to defend (which suck vs cannons), and sometimes even in the times of trebs/muskets! (I usually take astro off liberalism in isolation). I struggle a bit on emperor still but getting better.

Note that removing tech brokering should help you if you're in isolation, the AI's will be swapping significantly less techs that way.

Of course, if you're peaceful you can just sit there, pump culture in 3 cities, and specialize at least 1 or two of the others with workshops and spam defense constantly (no need for iron when pumping longbows and muskets etc). I'd still settle off the peninsula though...why not grab more good tiles and tech more quickly ?

Get that galley and keep expanding !

 

[Belisar]

If it's just a peninsula blocked off by mountains...just go around!

This is all you need.
The strategical position you describe looks not bad but instead very interesting, could be a fun game, shipping around a lot of units.

The main reason I post is that if you want advice for a particular game situation you will get much more response if you post a picture (screenshot) instead of a save, many people (like me) can't load saves on their work-computers.
Hmm, should I access the forums from work

 

[Groogaroo]

I think for me the most important thing when attempting the next difficulty level is to not get discouraged by it. It sounds like you've got a tough start, (can't tell for sure as I can't seem to open the save) but its worth perservering. I've recently made the jump from noble to prince and it is tough taking on the next level once you've become comfortable.

I have to second Grandads recommendation of taking part in Nobles Club, its all about players who want to progress to Noble or progress from noble to prince and beyond. Its great to play a game and be able get advice from other players playing the same map, or even just compare games. Before Nobles club I struggled on Noble and now I'm comfortable at Prince, so why not join in the fun (although I'm assuming your BTS/bhurics 3.13)

Nobles Club

PS - Oh! I loved orions home school! Just a shame I wasn't around when it was going on. I thought there was going to be another one? but nothing has come up yet.

 

[eewallace]

Good idea re: screenshots. Here are two that match the save file. (I've actually played a little beyond this up through ironworking to discover there are no copper and iron.) I put my second city on the coastal desert to the east to get the horse and sheep, and so I can get a boat going ASAP to explore.

First shot show the whole peninsula (nothing beyond the ice you can see to the south). Second shows the northeast corner, where only jungle is visible beyond the mountains.

(Yes. It is BTS with Bhuric's patch. Probably why some people can't open the save, I guess...)

 

[grandad1982]

I think most people can't open the save as they were at work naught naughty.

Re your screens.
Yuch. Lots of plains tiles. Not very pretty. IMO you need sailing and to get settling the other side of those mountains ASAP.

Also explore the fog in the top west by the floodplains. Could be seafood hidden - though its fairly unlikely. A city on the plains hill NE of the floods will have food for 7 specialists

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You have good food. That floodplain fish site is really nice, and I see rice and pigs and clams etc. Settle some cities ASAP, get a work boat, and see how much there is to the land after that peninsula. Once you get sailing, settle on out...those mountains are more an annoyance than a true blockage (to you, the human player, anyway)

 

[eewallace]

Quick update: That foggy square in the nw was just another desert, but I put it to good use by putting my 3rd city on it to get the fish and floodplains.

grandad 1982: Yes, the hill to the east would have been optimal, but I put my 4th city on the square just south of the clam, thus squeezing above-average cities in there rather than one awesome city.

TheMeInTeam and Belisar: I got a workboat out exploring, then a galley to basically use as a bridge past the mountains. So far, I have 4 immortals and a scout on the other side, which is a dense jungle with some nice resources in it. I've got a settler in the works for the first "other side" city.

Beyond the jungle is Hannibal. Somewhere else on the continent are Augustus Caesar and Suryvaryman. For no particularly obvious reason, I appear to have about a 40-point lead so far. (Oh yeah, I built stonehenge. That is probably it.)

I'm REXing fast and building lighthouses, given that all my cities except the first are coastal--with financial trait, I'm counting on seafaring profits. GL is under construction.

Beeline Code of Laws next??? Since I'm not opening my borders, I could use religion, and I sure need courthouses with all these cities.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Quick update: That foggy square in the nw was just another desert, but I put it to good use by putting my 3rd city on it to get the fish and floodplains.

grandad 1982: Yes, the hill to the east would have been optimal, but I put my 4th city on the square just south of the clam, thus squeezing above-average cities in there rather than one awesome city.

TheMeInTeam and Belisar: I got a workboat out exploring, then a galley to basically use as a bridge past the mountains. So far, I have 4 immortals and a scout on the other side, which is a dense jungle with some nice resources in it. I've got a settler in the works for the first "other side" city.

Beyond the jungle is Hannibal. Somewhere else on the continent are Augustus Caesar and Suryvaryman. For no particularly obvious reason, I appear to have about a 40-point lead so far. (Oh yeah, I built stonehenge. That is probably it.)

I'm REXing fast and building lighthouses, given that all my cities except the first are coastal--with financial trait, I'm counting on seafaring profits. GL is under construction.

Beeline Code of Laws next??? Since I'm not opening my borders, I could use religion, and I sure need courthouses with all these cities.

This depends - do sury/hannibal/caesar have a religion yet, and is it the same one? I'd not take a religion opposite theirs, however if they don't have one you can found one and shrine it, basically enjoying its spread without any effort at all. It makes a big difference.

I'd almost say head to currency next, but it depends on your tech path so far. Currency and CoL are the two big, major, early financial techs. Combined, they allow for massive empires just by themselves.

CoL is good trade bait too, but if someone hasn't founded its religion yet, AND hannibal/sury/caesar have the same religion, i'd hold off on it intentionally and head towards currency until it's founded (maybe you can take one of their holy cities for a shrine later if that is the case). The reason one delays religions on purpose is for diplomatic purposes. Religions founded elsewhere often means AI's with different religions, which means they war and slow down their tech. Other than shrine gold you can get all of the benefits of a religion without founding it. Best case scenario is hannibal/sury/caesar having different ones, in which case you'd pick one and trounce the heathen for a solid amount of land. However, it's more likely sury founded one and spread it to hannibal and rome, or that none do.

Also, do you want a warlike game or do you want to camp peacefully? That will affect your decision here too.

Sury in particular is ultra aggressive against heathens (and in general), so don't antagonize him unless you intend to fight.

 

[eewallace]

I've got a bit further, and I'm fairly sure this is a pangea (is that one of the fractal possibilities?). I've met Napoleon and Huayna Capac. Napoleon has hinduism, which has spread to Caesar. Huayna Capac has judaism, but nobody else does. My closest neighbor, Hannibal, doesn't have religion, nor does Sury. I haven't met the buddhist yet...

The good news is I was wrong about iron. I actually have two on my penninsula!

And I've got 2 cities beyond the mountains in the jungle. Probably will get a third.

I'm thinking this may turn out not so far from my original hope--that there would be a bunch of warmongers who would devastate each other while I quietly tech into space. I'm one turn away from CoL, and should get confucianism next turn. If I go on for one of the other religions (which are not too far down the tech path), I might be able to do mischief by spreading these two religions to Hannibal and Sury, then sitting back and watching the fireworks.

I'm thinking peaceful game, since I've got a good defensible base.

Basic strategy: Get religion(s) and courthouses. Tech or trade to get monarchy and calendar, then quietly start racing toward space. (Got libraries in most of my penninsula cities already.)

Got to go feed dinner to family...

Any advice in the meanwhile is welcome!

 

[grandad1982]

Check out this excelent article on maps for your question about fractal maps - and more! The Complete Guide To Map Creation

TheMeInTeam has already said what i'd say about religion.

I'd advice you to settle aggresivally on the "other side" and block off as much jungle as possible. All those grassland tiles make some very adaptable cities.

Could you put up more screens?

Watch out for Sury. He can be a bit of apig in my experience.

 

[eewallace]

Got pretty far last night--here is a screenshot of my cities on the other side of the mountains.

Turns out the buddhist is Joao. He hates me, but is far away. He and Huayna are at war, as are my two closest neighbors, Caesar and Hannibal.

My confucianism spread like wildfire to my own cities, and I got missionaries to Caesar and Hannibal as well. Ironically, Hannibal managed to found Taoism somehow, so I needn't have bothered. Caesar, unfortunately, now has the same religion as Sury and Huayna, which could be a problem. Sury,for once, doesn't seem to hate me, and has even traded. I've opened most borders, have okay income (but didn't get GL or Collosus, unfortunately).

I'm still leading, but Joao is not far behind. He also has plenty of room to expand, which I don't... I'm still planning on space race.

Got to work today. Will post an update tomorrow!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If I were you, I'd mass up a force and take some of carthage's cities. Also, you probably need more workers! Some of those cities are certainly working unimproved tiles, and you'd like to minimize that as much as possible. 1 worker per city is a bare minimum...DaveMCW says to have 1.5 per, some people use as many as 2 per in the early game (as tiles are improved, you need less workers per city as you can relegate workers from initial cities to new ones).

In all likelihood nobody likes carthage, and they're probably weakened by war. It's the perfect time for a landgrabbing backstab. You can do the same thing later in the game using a decent quantity of galleons to stab Pacal or Nappy once they're at war with someone. Even if you only capture carthage though, that should be enough cities to make space easily if well-managed. Making someone like napolean a vassal and gifting him his cities back would add an element of protection (or you could just keep them and stick the FP there).

I never was a fan of running my own religion in a game like this...I'd almost certainly be jewish in your situation!

Edit: Bactra could have gone 1E to be coastal without losing any of the resources it currently has. You could eventually backfill another city there too, but since it'd be marginal that'd be some time in the future.

 

[eewallace]

I probably will convert to judaism when I can, but my problem was that nobody near me had ANY religions in their cities, and I needed a religion for temple happiness and monastery science. Confucianism was so popular with my people that it jumped over the mountains by itself!

2 more workers are on their way north to help with the jungle clearing...

I've got a small immortal-based army in the works, and I think I will try to take a few of Hannibal's cities. He clearly isn't going to survive long. In fact, it might be good to take the one immediately north and gift it back to Caesar at some point to solidify relations.

As to Bactra--I put it there to get the two forests. This is a game in which I am hammer-poor pretty much everywhere--there is not going to be any indiscriminate chopping for me--I need those forests as I have so few hills.

Joao has demanded that I gift him iron--no, thanks! Nice to know he doesn't have any. I suspect that he may sail over some troops to try to pick on me, if he manages to settle his differences with Huayna.

 

[grandad1982]

Sardis could be a nice little military pump as its coastal and only has 3 sea tiles so is good for naval and land production. Get those hills improved ASAP! Also remeber to chain irrigate the rice when you can.

Ergili is also a strong production site with 18 (?) from improvments you can already make. Its food poor compared to Sardis but if you farm the second floodplain you can support the 1 plains hill and the 2 grassland hills. The horse is food neutral and 2 more farms mean you can support the final plains hill. obviously this requires Civil servise to get the 2nd farm in the BFC.

The hardest thing I learnt when moving up to prince was to build enough workers - I still struggle (so many shiney buildings...) - after all land is power and improvments are power multipliers!

Make sure you take some Melee units with your immortals as CR promos are pretty handy.

 

[Belisar]

Nice espansion, you kept upt despite you were cut off by the mountains.
Now it is time to expand by , show Hannibal how this game is played.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You don't use forests for hammers . You use workshops for hammers...those cities both have a food to work workshops, and workshops can overtake forests very quickly (2 hammers when in caste, 3 once you have guilds. A workshop in caste with guilds is a mine! Screw the forests unless you need health or it's late game for a lumbermill).

 

[eewallace]

Okay, finally done with work and ready to roll.

You guys have convinced me to (a) buld more workers, and (b) get them started on workshops. I'm already in caste system--I need to head for guilds. (I think maybe Persia's UB comes with guilds, too???)

So, tonight I'll try to buddy up with the AIs with judaism, improve all worked squares, research to guilds, and build harbors and military units until I'm ready to attack Hannibal.

Edit: grandad1982--what you you mean "chain irrigate the rice"?