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First district in conquered undeveloped city?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Strategy & Tips' started by myclan, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. myclan

    myclan Chieftain

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    Campus is a must in previous game, though rationalism had been changed I'm still used to choose campus as the first district in almost all the cities. But now we can't get the bonus from CS just by a empty district, also he changed rationalism making a low pop low adjacency bonus Academy less attracting.

    What's more though Eureka/Inspiration had been nerfed from 50% to 40%, they are still important source of boosting scientific/cultural ouput. And to meet the demand we often need to build/buy something in time. Also, the most important way to get more culture except monument in later game I think is the archaelogist, but they are costing too long to build that it may be better to just buy them out. Which make gold/faith more important.

    So will you still choose Academy as the first district to build? Or if there is no good adjacency bonus choose a Theater District/CH/HS instead? Sometimes I will choose Entertainment/Industrial if a lot of cities around it. But Encampment is never in the list.
     
  2. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    I almost always put up either a Commercial Hub or a Harbor to get the trade route. Even with the nerf moving the trade route to the tier 1 building, I still try to get markets or lighthouses in every city before other districts. Trade routes are just too important to delay.
     
  3. myclan

    myclan Chieftain

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    So how will you use your trade route? Mainlt domestic for food/production or internation for gold/science/culture?
     
  4. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    Commercial Hub as the first district in your primary cities?
    That sounds like an awful long time to wait for build a district!?
    I am guessing you plop down other districts before building to avoid building costs?
     
  5. Spudsie74

    Spudsie74 Chieftain

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    Holy Site, if you want a religion, otherwise, usually the first district I get the ability to build...usually a campus, but could be a harbor, commercial hub, or encampment. In other words, an unequivocal, "I'm not sure." (or "It depends.").

    Aakkk! Sorrry, I quoted for first district, not first in conquered city. Probably a campus. :shifty:
     
  6. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    Internal trade routs. The extra food and production are generally superior to the peanuts worth of gold/science/culture from international trade routes. I generally only switch to international trade once my cities are mature and I have policy cards to make the international routes better (especially when alliance partners provide food/production and improved relations). The only exception is when I have trade missions for CS envoys.
     
  7. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    This has been discussed before, and in depth, but I strongly doubt that the extra food and production from internal routes is ever worth the loss of an early culture or science point, and certainly not worth the loss of potential culture or science combined with extra faith and gold.

    Trade routes just stay in place too long to be carefully targeted to the rare situation where faster city growth leading to a quicker district/building allows you to catch up on the culture/science/faith/gold you lost by not running an international trade route.

    Unless you can't safely run an international route because of possible barbarians, you're almost certainly slowing down the development of your empire by not maximizing your culture and science output in the early game. That faith and gold are also more flexible and therefore valuable than production is the gravy on top.
     
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  8. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    You also forgot to mention that running an international trade route to a nearby Civ will give you a road that will help your army move and conquer faster.

    I think the clear choice for your early game trade routes, in Civ VI, has to be International over Internal unlike in Civ V.

    I wouldn't doubt that some situations will dictate which way is better.
     
  9. myclan

    myclan Chieftain

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    I think tha main difference between internal and international is the food. If you get a city rich in mine but lack of food thus few citizen to work the tile. We should definitely use internal TR to boost the growth. But if there is no good tile to work. Simply use a international one for other output.
     
  10. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    Even then you're generating food so you can eventually generate production so you can eventually produce a district/building to give you science or culture.

    Not saying it's not the right play. The extra citizens do give you some science and some culture (though you typically have to invest in amenities to get the most of that yield, which means you're not selling a luxury to bank the gold). But there's a lot of time that passes (a minimum of 22 turns, usually more like 30 some turns) before you can redirect that internal trade route towards getting science and culture directly.
     
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  11. myclan

    myclan Chieftain

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    In early game AI tend to build holy site first and internal TR with a 2F1P or 1F2P just seems better than a +1Faith+3Gold? In later game AI build more district and with the foreign TR bonus policy it gets better, even better with Coinage Reformation. But it get a little late and war often had begun thus still no foreign TR available.
     
  12. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Pô Chi Min

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    Internal routes are better early on(centralized). I often build an encampment and government plaza in capital pretty early so the TR can bring +2f and +3h from it. Don't forget that these stats are added to trade routes already in function. Well it's a primary way to develop faster, at least for multiplayer.

    About OP: Well like we said trade routes are a great way to boost new cities so bring one asap to your conquered city. With 4-6 hammers per turn added he can build anything in a reasonable time.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
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  13. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    We both know MP is a completely different game.
    Growth isn't so important on SP from what I can tell.
    I notice that a bunch of 2 or 3 pop cities along with a few 6 or 7 pop cities is all that is needed to ICS the map.
    It seems that getting the more cities is the better in this game compared to the Tall Strategies of Civ V.

    I have done some messing about with internal trade routes though and grew my empire very tall which worked just fine.
    I even did some 4 city messing about but I still find it better to go lower pop for that crawling empire for Civ 6 SP.
    However I am just an average Deity Player so you have to take my comments with a grain or two of salt.
     
  14. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I think this is right. But at the same time, I think it's often better to keep your trade routes internal at the start to slow yourself down a little. I know, right? How ridiculous you deliberately have to slow yourself, but that's the game we currently have...

    Anyway. I find it can be good fun setting trade routes up in your Capital or other core city (City A), sending each one to an internal city (say City B1, B2, B3), and then when the route times out, send it to a different city (potentially a foreign city) (City C) but via the previous destination (i.e. via City B1). You get some extra gold this way via trading post, but really the advantage is that you feel like you have a "growing" trade network.

    But yeah. Sending routes to Foreign Cities right from the start for Science and Culture is usually the smarter approach efficiency wise.
     
  15. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    I disagree. Unless there is a trade route CS quest, my first trade route is almost always internal. I do not send it from my capital to a 2nd city, but rather move the trade to my 2nd city and set up an internal route to my capital. This will generally start out at perhaps 2 food and 1 production growing as the capital continues to expand (generally about 3 food and 3 production by the classical era). This is an order of magnitude more valuable than what I can get from an early international trade route.
     
  16. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

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    The players that play by the math seem to be saying science/gold/culture beats 2 Food and 1 Production.
    The way I understand it is that population is better in this game keeping it lower around 6 and some cities up to 10 pop.
    Especially with your warmonger game don't you want that trade route to another Civ for the Road and Diplomatic Benefits?

    I agree in Civ V that internal routes are the way to go but in this game I think it works the other way around.

    I rolled a random game just a bit ago.
    I ended up with Rome.
    Tamar was right on top of me by turn 8 she had two cities directly to my North and Northeast.
    Of course I started scouting SW and SE.

    Anyways I didn't have much time for anything before her warriors were knocking on my door.
    Difficult Terrain made her troops get slaughtered.
    I managed to get one city out during the Defense.
    A trade Route to Auckland gave me 5 Gold and 1 Production which seemed pretty strong instead of 2F and 1P Internal Expo to Capital.
    So of course she got walls up very quick but 3 Archers and some Warriors took out two of her expos.
    Her capital almost was taken but I had give her peace since her Spears and Land are a problem.
    Her two Expos are horrible and needles to say all 4 of my cities now hardly have any luxuries.
    The second city I took from her is -5 Amenities right now on turn 58/59.
    She wrecked my game basically :)

    Cumae is settled on the Tobacco.
    As you can see I built two early Campuses.
    This is probably wrong but I was trying to work on my Knight Rush game thinking to get my SPT up early.
    Getting Knights up before turn 90 would be a miracle for me now I think.
    Why bother with Knights when you have Legions right?
    I dunno I rolled the game random and I am trying to get my Knight Rush game faster no matter who I randomly roll.

    As usual I am in the Classical Dark Age.
    Most likely Hard Building the wrong districts first.
    Didn't get Harvest. I decided to take Pastures for the extra Culture (Turn 61).
    This kind of game makes me want to just burn down the world!
    Gilgamesh was supposed to help me take down that Capital but I guess he will do it now that I made peace... bastard!

    I don't know exactly what to do.
    I guess I can ICS now with all this open land.
    Play it by ear from there but I certainly don't see myself finishing before turn 200 which is what I am trying to get better at.

    I will be done with this game before anyone posts about it but I would like to get feedback from what anyone thinks from the screenshot and write up/situation.
    What would your plan be from here?

    Rome vs Tamar.jpg

    EDIT: Heroic Age Turn 85

    I was heading for Machinery with 3 turns left but decided to chop walls and get up a few Knights.
    Wait for Mercenaries. Upgrade. Kill Tamar.
    Not sure from there. Try to get out Settlers. Kill CS's.
    Closest Target is Gilgamesh who I don't like to kill since he is always so nice.

    One thing I am doing this game is slotting my citizens in the Campuses which seems better than growing.
    Once again I failed to stop building walls with 1 turn to go in Tskhumi.
    So I see the walls built and refuse to reload.
    Missing that chop really hurts :)
    I tend to play too fast.

    Rome 85 Heroic Age.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    One must remember that these nerf's also affect your opponents. Status quo remains the same. For me it is about positioning, adjacency and need. certainly placing the first district early is important but what?... As we are talking conquered city I have found that a conquered city with an ED already there can be a scary powerful thing. Buy the builder, chop in 3 pop run bread and circus and watch the small enemy cities start flipping, no warmonger, no grief. Maybe my core cities have campus and only now I can build theaters and I want a CV so thats what I build. 4 trade routes for the fairies is always a consideration and all that mountain may tempt a holy site as an alternative. Certainly the IZ is not the choice in most situations but the right adjacency screaming at me may make it worth considering, after all there are inspirations out there for multiple districts.
    ...I have the opposite belief. The early extra science/culture is great and the gold is a very flexible product that can be used as production (2 gold = 1 prod or 3 gold = 1 prod, depending on what you are wanting). The extra envoy is even harder to ignore and now they have really thrown the cat among the pigeons with a trade route in an enemy base.... I really struggle to use them internally now and tend to do so mainly for a road over a lot of rough ground. It is not uncommon for my nation to not have many internal roads which feels wrong but I struggle to use them just to make my civ feel right.
    As per above, it's not just the math. The math put's things on a roughly even keel, it is the advantages above and the consideration that practically all of the trade cards are for foreign trade.

    To me internal trade routes are like using IZ's, they seem like fun and that direct correlation to production makes you think it's straight forward but gold can be production, science/culture/faith should be underestimated and all those other benefits just make IZ's and internal trade routes the weaker cousin's.

    Science gets you to +1 mines faster.
    Culture gets you to feudalism farms faster, and more importantly +2 charge builders + knights eureka... And it is this culture that get me to place a district but build a monument first.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  18. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    In the early game (which is what I am talking about in my post), you do not have any trade cards to buff international trade routes. The comparison is between taking the 3 gold + 1 CS resource (culture/science/faith/production) vs. an internal trade route from a newly founded 2nd city which has perhaps 1-2 population getting an instant +3 food and +2 production from the capital (and also a road connecting the two). I almost always opt for the second option unless there is a CS quest to tempt me.

    My first 4 or so trade routes are all set up back to my capital (or perhaps also connecting to a 2nd city which has developed). It isn't until the medieval or renaissance era that I start to turn my traders outward. This is also when the nice trade cards start to become available.
     
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I do take exception to you quoting the absolute minimum you get from a CS at turn 1 and then use as comparison a city with 3 districts and state it is the early game.

    +3 gold +1 CS versus +1 food +1 production is correct

    Now 3 gold = 1 production roughly
    is 1 science or culture worth 1 food?... that 1 culture will get you to the +1 production in each city card very fast.

    Do not get me wrong @Mesix , I'll set up a harbour, gov plaza, CH, IZ in my capital given the chance and will then send new city trade routes there because +1 food +5 production will get me granaries or whatever else I want mighty fast in all new cities. There are time internal trade routes are best.... My first one will often be between my first and second cities but purely for the road as I can attack a neighbor 5 turns faster doing so.

    Also +1 prod in a new city that is only making 2 prod to start is a huge increase... but 3 GPT will buy me that monument just as well but allows me to change my mind and use it elsewhere in an emergency.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018

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