First game on Prince, could use some pointers

[Gone Dark]

Hi, I've been lurking on and off for a long time, but this the first time posting.

I have been playing CIV IV (Warlords) for quite some time, but only a game here and there. Since a few weeks back I've been trying to learn to actually play the game and not just go nuts at settler and cheiftain where every building goes in every city and you do the old Oracle-liberalism slingshot.

I can manage to win pretty easy on Noble, some games are easier than others, but I still find it hard to actually lose.

Today I fired up my first game on prince difficulty. Things are going pretty well I think, but I'm not sure in what direction I should be heading. (I have been playing further than the save below, but I thought I'd try some different strategies from the same save).

I'm playing as Ragnar, Agg/Fin, fractal map, normal speed, everything else standard I guess. I haven't played as the vikings before, and that's a shame since I'm from Scandinavia. They have a pretty good attacking UU and the UB is decent if you are engaged in naval warfare. The only thing lacking is the Roskilde festival national viking wonder

Anyhow, the year is 100 BC, I've settled six cities, razed a barb city, build the pyramids and just researched code of laws to open up courthouses. I've got Ramesses in the south, Mao to the east, Brennus to the north, sea to the west and cyrus somewhere in the fog. The map has been very good to me so far, and has given me a chunk of nice fertile land, with ivory, iron, stone, horses and lots of floodplains.

Now, I decided pretty early to cottage the floodplains, beeing financial and all that. With the pyramids, I could run specialists I guess, but I'm not really sure how to leverage my trait and the specialists.

My tech path, beyond the initial six techs, has been something like bronze working, animal husbandry, masonry, pottery, poly, priest, iron working and code of laws (can't remember the exact order).

Now I'm at the crossroads between Math and Alpha -> Lit.

Ramesses has alpha, math, sailing, mono, archery and mediation on me (I have code of laws on him) and is the founder of Hinduism.
Cyrus built the Oracle and got confused the same turn. He is second in score.
Brennus hates me, has "enough on his hands". The only question is who of us attacks the other first.
Mao isn't making any noise so far.

Ramesses is Industrious and I don't have marble, so I don't think the GL is viable to me at the moment, unless I use the GE I'll be getting from the Pyramids for it. Hanging Gardens might be as I have stone and it's only one tech away. I could do with some aqueducts as well. Math is also on the way to Construction, cats and jumbos, which I'll need when I take the wonders away from Ramesses later

Anyhow, there are still some possible city locations in the west, and maybe I should settle those first.

Birka is designated to be the GP farm. I'll have to farm over the cottage I built there, I hadn't decided it would be the GP farm at that moment.

Anyway I'd like some input on the different directions I could go here. Should I try to take out Brennus with Swords and Axes? Seems a little late for that I think. I'm thinking of teching to math while building courthouses/other infra/axes/swords to aid the jumbos and cats I build right before the attack.

Or should I go after Ramesses instead? His capital will be a commerce wonderland with all those floodplains. Should I research Alphabet instead of math and go the peacful route for a while? My economy isn't ready for conquest yet. What if Brennus attacks me? Wage a defensive war?

I need to improve on everything, basically, from the economy to the military, city placement, research, techtrading and whatnot.

All advice is highly appriciated.

The save:

 

[dannyusmc78]

dude, join us over in "calling experts: help for prince +" Ive played prince 5 times now....the last game i didnt end up dead last how about that? lol

 

[nullspace]

Things are looking good, you've got some cities with great potential, and you have the top score. I'd vote for the peaceful route for a while at least. You've got a lot of land, and getting more would just slow down your tech right now. Start specializing your cities by researching and building things like markets or forges. Meanwhile you can explore your rivals' territories so you can make a better decision about who to attack later. You've got elephants, but you might want to wait until you have berserkers, trebuchets, and vassalage or theocracy before attacking.

 

[Gone Dark]

Things are looking good, you've got some cities with great potential, and you have the top score. I'd vote for the peaceful route for a while at least. You've got a lot of land, and getting more would just slow down your tech right now. Start specializing your cities by researching and building things like markets or forges. Meanwhile you can explore your rivals' territories so you can make a better decision about who to attack later. You've got elephants, but you might want to wait until you have berserkers, trebuchets, and vassalage or theocracy before attacking.

Hi, and thanks for taking the time to look at the save.

I finished the game today, and managed to launch a space ship in the end. Brennus declared on me about 300 AD, and I had to defend myself, so I attacked instead. I waged a half measured war, took one city, razed another, then got peace. Built Berserkers when machinery and civil service was in and attacked again. Had to stop for ten turns and reinforce before I could take his last two cities. I think I planned the war very poorly, I wasn't done until 1100 or so. By then I really had to struggle to keep up with the tech club in the south racing down the tech tree.

Maybe I attacked too early, got too greedy to take all his land (which weren't that good either). Would you have stayed on the defensive getting a peace treaty as soon as possible with Brennus?

 

[Silence101]

Anyhow, the year is 100 BC, I've settled six cities, razed a barb city, build the pyramids and just researched code of laws to open up courthouses. I've got Ramesses in the south, Mao to the east, Brennus to the north, sea to the west and cyrus somewhere in the fog. The map has been very good to me so far, and has given me a chunk of nice fertile land, with ivory, iron, stone, horses and lots of floodplains.

Now, I decided pretty early to cottage the floodplains, beeing financial and all that. With the pyramids, I could run specialists I guess, but I'm not really sure how to leverage my trait and the specialists.

I'm at work so I won't be able to view your saved game, but one thing I did notice is that you mentioned you have six cities and the pyramids! Nice! Still, I think one of the biggest secrets to winning at this level is expansion... whether you settle it peacefully or kill for it, or if you're like me, a little of both. My point though is not to lose focus on expanding.

With six cities and the pyramids, it seems like you have created a good opportunity to run an SE w/ representation. That will take care of your research... which means you won't have to spend as much money on research... which means you can afford to lower that slider and spend some money on new city maintanence. This will also help fund your war efforts.

When you first start expanding to the point where it gets a little painful... you're dropping your slider to 20% research (which is not a problem for an SE), you may feel like you're going backwards. However, if you can double the size of your Civ here, it's going to be that much easier for you when you hit the later stages of the game.

Eventually as your interior becomes more established, you should has some good commerce cities up and running, and you'll probably want to gradually get away from the SE... start raising that slider when you can. I like to run it at about 70% toward the modern age. (I usually continue expanding through war for the course of the game... not to say that I'm always at war, but I'm always at least making plans for future expansion and war.)

It seems to me that you're in a great position from what it sounds. You may still want to shoot for the GL... especially if you choose to run an SE. Unless it's just super late, you'd be surprised the corners you can cut off of wonder production even when competing against another industrious Civ. Otherwise though, for me, since I plan to be at war much of the time, military tech is often my priority.

 

[Silence101]

Hi, and thanks for taking the time to look at the save.

I finished the game today, and managed to launch a space ship in the end. Brennus declared on me about 300 AD, and I had to defend myself, so I attacked instead. I waged a half measured war, took one city, razed another, then got peace. Built Berserkers when machinery and civil service was in and attacked again. Had to stop for ten turns and reinforce before I could take his last two cities. I think I planned the war very poorly, I wasn't done until 1100 or so. By then I really had to struggle to keep up with the tech club in the south racing down the tech tree.

Maybe I attacked too early, got too greedy to take all his land (which weren't that good either). Would you have stayed on the defensive getting a peace treaty as soon as possible with Brennus?

Looks like I'm a little late! But, it sounds like you won in the end. Nice!

 

[dannyusmc78]

Silence......your email trailer sounds like you work for a TV station...ha!...good advice, my next prince game im seriously considering a SE with cottages...im warlike/expansionist so im thinkin genghis is the way to go for me.....prolly be startin after work today.....ive had it with gandhi...Though i love the industrious quality, its not getting me anywhere.....

 

[Gone Dark]

I'm at work so I won't be able to view your saved game, but one thing I did notice is that you mentioned you have six cities and the pyramids! Nice! Still, I think one of the biggest secrets to winning at this level is expansion... whether you settle it peacefully or kill for it, or if you're like me, a little of both. My point though is not to lose focus on expanding.

Hi!

Yeah, I got a very good start with nice spots to settle. I didn't think any of the other capitals were close enough to rush that early, so I took the peacuful route instead (except taking out a barb city). That Stone in my third city really helped a lot when building the pyramids.

With six cities and the pyramids, it seems like you have created a good opportunity to run an SE w/ representation. That will take care of your research... which means you won't have to spend as much money on research... which means you can afford to lower that slider and spend some money on new city maintanence. This will also help fund your war efforts.

It's a little ironic, it was probably one of the best maps I ever had for running a SE, but I was financial and the voices in the back of my head kept saying "cottage the floodplainsss, cottage the floodplainsss". I still had two early saves, one from 625 BC and one from 100 BC, and I just replayed from 625 BC, but assigned specialists and made farmes instead. The difference is pretty big I have to say.

In the first one, I was a little bit quicker. I settled the last two cities seven and four turns quicker, but I think I made a settler in the capital that time, this time I built a library there instead.

The difference in tech pace is pretty big. In the first game, I had researched CoL and started Math with seven turns to go at 100 BC. In this game I went for Alphabet instead, with 1 turn to go at 100 BC. Next is math, which will only take 5 turns with -2 g/t at 30%. So I will have researched Math one turn faster with the SE AND getting Alphabet as well. Tech trading is made so much easier when you actually have a tech non or few others have.

Later at 425 AD, I'm teching along nicely. I built my academy, researched drama and bulbed philosophy. Two turns to construction, elephants and catapults to gear up for war against Brennus. My military city is building an army and I also started spreading religion around, about 800 years earlier than the last game

Thank you very much for the input

When you first start expanding to the point where it gets a little painful... you're dropping your slider to 20% research (which is not a problem for an SE), you may feel like you're going backwards. However, if you can double the size of your Civ here, it's going to be that much easier for you when you hit the later stages of the game.

I was not prepared for the price of expansion at prince. In the last game I played on noble, I rushed Shaka very early and took his three cities, then found out I had A LOT of land to settle. I looked at a save from 700 AD, I had 16 cities and still had the slider above 40% getting a few gold per turn.

Eventually as your interior becomes more established, you should has some good commerce cities up and running, and you'll probably want to gradually get away from the SE... start raising that slider when you can. I like to run it at about 70% toward the modern age. (I usually continue expanding through war for the course of the game... not to say that I'm always at war, but I'm always at least making plans for future expansion and war.)

We seem to have similar styles. I can't remember the last time I played a game without war.

I have two questions:

1. When do you start to change farms to cottages all over?

2. Should I start cottaging the capital as soon as I reach civil service and revolt to bureaucracy to maximize the gains of +50% commerce?

It seems to me that you're in a great position from what it sounds. You may still want to shoot for the GL... especially if you choose to run an SE. Unless it's just super late, you'd be surprised the corners you can cut off of wonder production even when competing against another industrious Civ. Otherwise though, for me, since I plan to be at war much of the time, military tech is often my priority.

I researched lit for NE, I don't think I can get the GL this game, but it's not that bad. Allthough I know what difference it makes. If I have marble I would, but it's 24 turns away in the capital at 425 BC.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Gone Dark]

Silence......your email trailer sounds like you work for a TV station...ha!...good advice, my next prince game im seriously considering a SE with cottages...im warlike/expansionist so im thinkin genghis is the way to go for me.....prolly be startin after work today.....ive had it with gandhi...Though i love the industrious quality, its not getting me anywhere.....

Go for it. Start a new game and make a thread about it here in the strat forum, posting screenshots and all that for others to comment and help you out. I'd be very intersested in following that game.

 

[Silence101]

Silence......your email trailer sounds like you work for a TV station...ha!...good advice, my next prince game im seriously considering a SE with cottages...im warlike/expansionist so im thinkin genghis is the way to go for me.....prolly be startin after work today.....ive had it with gandhi...Though i love the industrious quality, its not getting me anywhere.....

Nope - no TV station for me. I work for an investment management company. I guess they don't want to be affiliated with Civ advice that they don't agree with.

It's always good to try different strategies... even if I find that the strategy is not effective for me, I learn a ton just by doing stuff wrong. The strategy that I discussed is probably more of a CE, using elements of an SE to supplement periods with low income... I guess you could also call it a transition economy. One of my favorite leaders for this is Pericles - he's got a well balanced, early UU, CRE helps with the land grab and warmongering, and PHI is a real boost to that early SE. It's a good combo. (Either Greek leader is good, actually.)

There's a lot of veteran players who are better than me that swear by running an SE for the entire game. I'm personally not the best with an SE - my games I find are more effective with the late game CE... but I guess that just goes to show that I'm still learning too. I do well on Prince - I usually only lose if all the AI Civ's gang up on me. It does happen occasionally... Grr...

I have two questions:

1. When do you start to change farms to cottages all over?

2. Should I start cottaging the capital as soon as I reach civil service and revolt to bureaucracy to maximize the gains of +50% commerce?

I like the way that you go back and revisit old saved games to try different strategies. I'll do that with strategies that I read about in these forums - learned a ton. It doesn't sound like you're doing bad, though. Maybe you should've switched to Prince earlier! Anyway, to answer your questions:

1 - I kind of mentioned this a bit above, but I typically only use elements of an SE to supplement my CE. My capital and second city usually turn into hybrids to some degree, but from there I'll usually try to build commerce and production cities at about a 1:1 ratio. In my commerce cities, I build cottages right away, but it will still take time for those cities to develop... so I run an SE in the meantime. I usually don't cottage over farms. I'll start gradually raising the slider toward research as more money comes in.

2 - The capital makes an awesome mid-game hybrid city with bureaucracy. With that said, I wouldn't wait until CC to start cottaging - again, I usually start cottaging as soon as possible, so that those cottages will be fully grown by the time bureaucracy hits.

I researched lit for NE, I don't think I can get the GL this game, but it's not that bad. Allthough I know what difference it makes. If I have marble I would, but it's 24 turns away in the capital at 425 BC.

The GL is one of my favorite wonders - I don't like to lose that one. It sounds like you did fine without it, though.

 

[Gone Dark]

I like the way that you go back and revisit old saved games to try different strategies. I'll do that with strategies that I read about in these forums - learned a ton. It doesn't sound like you're doing bad, though. Maybe you should've switched to Prince earlier! Anyway, to answer your questions:

1 - I kind of mentioned this a bit above, but I typically only use elements of an SE to supplement my CE. My capital and second city usually turn into hybrids to some degree, but from there I'll usually try to build commerce and production cities at about a 1:1 ratio. In my commerce cities, I build cottages right away, but it will still take time for those cities to develop... so I run an SE in the meantime. I usually don't cottage over farms. I'll start gradually raising the slider toward research as more money comes in.

2 - The capital makes an awesome mid-game hybrid city with bureaucracy. With that said, I wouldn't wait until CC to start cottaging - again, I usually start cottaging as soon as possible, so that those cottages will be fully grown by the time bureaucracy hits.

I guess I should find the balance myself. I abandoned the Viking game after a while, didn't have the energy to play it through when I already finished it once. I did start a new game with Augustus though, going for domination I think. I killed Toku in 1100 AD and Hannibal in 1650, so I think I might have a shot at it. Even though a barb axe took out my fourth city somtime in the BC years

Something I noticed about prince is the traits make a bigger difference than on noble and you need to exploit them more.

The GL is one of my favorite wonders - I don't like to lose that one. It sounds like you did fine without it, though.

Ramesses built it a few turns later, but I think I just didn't plan for it good enough.

Thanks again for all the advice, it really helps.