[BTS] First Immortal shadow with Hannibal

[jnebbe]

Hi, wanted to make a shadow game on immortal, right now I can play emperor and end up in a middle spot, I think immortal is well beyond my current capacities but I think I will learn a ton from an immortal shadow.

I want to mainly focus on peacefully expanding, I tend to settle 6/7 cities by t100 but then slow down a lot after that. I'll typically only settle city spots I deem as "good" and leave all the "ok" spots for the ai to fill in, which I think is hurting me.

Playing Pangaea, standard speed+size, med sea level, no vassals/random events/huts

Playing as Hannibal:
Start with Fishing and Mining
Financial and Charismatic

The start:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you will always start with 4 resources in your bfc if you were to settle in place, so it looks like the 3 missing ones will be here?

In my eyes the obvious choice to settle is 1S, only thing I'm thinking is I'll be missing out on the PH improvement, I don't want to focus on war in this game so getting access to that resource right when I discover it isn't a huge deal. As for tech, I'll probably go agri->ah->bw

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you will always start with 4 resources in your bfc

By no means is this guaranteed, there's normally 2 food but you can end up with lots of resources or none depending on the RNG especially on Immortal.

the obvious choice to settle is 1S

That will give you the extra hammer from turn 1 but takes you away from fresh water which isn't ideal (I tend to value that higher than many other players though), I'd be tempted to move the warrior onto the pigs hill before I do anything else.

Hopefully some of the better players will be along soon

 

[Nogbadthebad]

I'm not one of the better players either, so I'll just suggest warrior move SW. This will give more info on the PH settle, which could well be a copper/iron tile (though also a 3H cap).

 

[lymond]

Actually PH settle is pretty much no-brainer here. That is, I would set my mind on it, and move the warrior to reveal some conflicting data. Which actually he's not in a very good position to do. I'd probably move him 1NE on the hill to reveal the coastal tiles since coast is 2 tiles away. Though I think you are ok on orphaning seafood here.

Not keen on no vassal option. You mention peaceful approach, which is fine early, but some later warfare can setup a lot of things.

6 to 7 cities or more is fine, but I'd not be overly concerned with AI filling in. If you learn proper methods of playing this level, you will setup for later warfare to expand your empire. Vassals can be good too.

 

[Snowbird]

Techs align very badly with 12 turns worker. Size two worker maybe?

I think best move with warrior is 1NE check coast, next turn check eastern mystery tile in the original BFC. Not sure what I would do if it finds food in there, likely settle on PH anyway.

In general, I'd move to PH - pigs and two FP is enough food. Of course you can SIP if you feel lucky, with two mystery tiles quite likely one can be food, but if it is dry rice... (I think western mystery tile is plains so that limits its usefulness).

If settler was not on FP (let say plains instead), I would seriously consider SIP since fast worker does not mean faster improved food (getting worker faster is good, but not full snowball material). As it is... +1hammer for ever, +1food from freed FP as good as minor food source.

 

[Nick723]

Techs align very badly with 12 turns worker. Size two worker maybe?

I’d just go straight for BW and mine the pigs for now?

 

[jnebbe]

Moved warrior 1NE which revealed nothing interesting so I settled on PH

Questions:
1: Does it particularly matter which way I scout? I'm thinking N to scout around the cow
2: Tech is very awkward here, Im thinking bw then chop out a 2nd settler very early? I believe I could get a 2nd settler out by T30 or so, and agrig->ah could be done by T33, then wheel->pottery after that?
I think bw should be done first, tons of forests and even if I chop a 2nd settler that still leaves plenty for graneries
3: Should I be looking at demographics for anything specific?
4: I know there's some trick to selecting and unselecting a tech, can someone explain how that works?

 

[civac]

You want to scout in the direction with the most potential/significance. If there were tundra visible to your south or north you would not go there first most of the time.

Why not calculate/sim Agri->AH vs BW first. I'd probably go double worker first for the BW route to alleviate the commerce problem. This is quite a bit of work but it will help you in future games by sharpening your intuition.

You can deselect techs each turn until turn 5(?) . The beakers will be stored. (After turn 5 they won't be stored anymore so you need to commit then.) The advantage is that you can make your decision about tech path with more scouting information. In this case for instance you may find a very good second city spot which would make chopping a settler early a strong play so that BW first would be better than otherwise. There is also an off chance you could profit from known tech bonuses if you meet AIs which already has the tech you want to research.

 

[sampsa]

I would scout SE for sure. Best chance of meeting someone pre-T5.

 

[Fippy]

I’d just go straight for BW and mine the pigs for now?

Same, double worker also not a bad idea with many forests.
Deselecting techs is useless for BW first, AIs cannot have it on t5

Agri - AH would be fine without FIN, but with Hanni floodplains should be cottages so chopping out what you need at start should be better.

 

[sampsa]

Deselecting techs is useless for BW first, AIs cannot have it on t5

Yeah, no idea why I thought mining-BW (and how that would make sense timing-wise).

I don't think it matters much which way you scout in this exact situation. 2cc+3 pigs makes a 3T warrior, so scouting is not an issue even if going worker-worker-warrior.

 

[jnebbe]

Alright boys I just won my first emperor game yesterday and I'm ready to take on immortal

T1-5

Spoiler :

Scouted north since I wanted to know what was around that cow and FP and I found a lot of food as well as a nice fogbust spot; in hindsight, that land isn't necessarily that great since I can't share the only food source in carthage, and I still don't fully know the land S of carthage.
Also Isabella is extremely close, I wanted to expand peacefully but that might not work

I did select/deselect tech and I need to commit to something this turn, I think bw is still the best move, it finishes in 11 turns, I guess I will mine the pig, then chop until agri->ah is done. I saw 2 workers was suggested, I was thinking worker->worker->warrior->settler->settler or is that too ambitious? I don't know how early barbs spawn on immortal.

Really interested in how others think this should go, definitely not super straightforward

 

[sampsa]

My first instinct is

Spoiler :

not go worker-worker because I'd like to race to the ph-spot that claims corn+cow. If that tile wasn't a hill I think it'd be OK just to let Bella grab it if she pleases (the other hill is on cap 3rd ring so I'd welcome her settle there and try to flip it). Archers on a hill might be a bit more painful to remove. Size 1 settler makes most sense to me, only 1 good tile and chops make the stagnating period not too long. OTOH that spot is not as strong as it appears on first glance. With religion she will steal the corn. We lack both agri and AH for now. Hmm.

In this position, copper can be a real game changer. With copper available, going axes on Isabella would be a strong play. You need to choose the build in the capital before BW is in though, which makes it a bit tricky. 2nd worker actually feels like a pretty safe choice, not too committal and there is lots of wood to chop.

T1 I said I'd like to scout SE. Now with the new info (close neighbor, good city spots found) I couldn't care less about SE/S. I definitely wouldn't wander towards south with the warrior. Probably scout 1S, then go fog bust the area N of capital. As you climb up the levels you'll notice that fog busting the right areas (where an archer spawning would be a real issue) asap is very important. Scouting and fog busting unimportant areas are a luxury you cannot often afford.

 

[jnebbe]

T5-17

Spoiler :

Move 1S to the grassland hill and see bella has some gold, then head north to fogbust, 2 animals already spawned. Also bella founds buddhism

bw finishes but reveals no copper, I don't grab slavery yet. Worker finished and mined pigs while I was still waiting on bw. From here I can chop twice then get a settler out T26 with 16 overflow, I think building a 1t warrior with that would be good since I don't have copper here for a rush so I might need to look south for something else. Also met justinian fairly early which makes me think we will be pretty boxed in.

@sampsa why do you say settle on the PH with cow and corn? I don't entirely know how culture battles work but won't bella's third ring end up taking that corn? I can settle there T29 and her borders will pop by 45ish, spot doesn't look that good imo

 

[civac]

You get bonus culture after culture expansion. If you can get the first expansion in the cow/corn city you get +20 extra plot culture in its inner ring. Early on even the AI culture output can't match that. Of course there is the chance that you lose the corn temporarily and then later on Isabella will likely overwhelm the extra culture with her capital if you don't kill her.

 

[Gumbolt]

2 good food resources and 1 extra hammer from hill. If you don't take it Isabella will. Plus the marble later.

 

[sampsa]

I thought I pointed out all the pros and cons or of the hill spot, but maybe it was too rambly. Yes, especially now that she founded a religion (not a huge surprise) you won't get the corn. Maybe you should go there with your 3rd city when you are close to having access to AH and just live with it if she steals the spot. I guess 1N of corn is the normal play. If no horsies, then go for catapults very likely.