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First impressions: Wonders still suck (big time).

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by Ryika, Mar 11, 2015.

  1. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian Jokerfied Western Male

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    Yeah. Some have. Still, with the nerfs it doesn't look like the number of wonders deserving of that title has significantly increased.
     
  2. whyidie

    whyidie Emperor

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    Interesting. Only played the demo and wasn't too impressed.

    One thing I did pick up on was ease of expansion, which as you say is a welcome change after Civ5.

    What got you hooked ?
     
  3. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    I've made a review that I will upload on my channel for my detailed per wonder thoughts.

    Overall the problem is that there is a big problem in the design of these. Some would make sense if they were less costly or in another place. They completely missed the notion of opportunity cost due to the cost of the wonder or the cost of the associated techs. Some were nerfed to the ground too.

    If you're going to put a wonder in a remote branch, it has to be strong. Otherwise you will never do it due to opportunity costs. This is a major issue with many of these.

    I'm rather baffled by some of these changes. I probably would advise to simply ignore wonders for someone interested in having a strong game... disappointing. A couple of them are interesting but that's about it.

    Again... it seems they're shooting in the dark.
     
  4. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    There isn't a Purity game I've played, up to Soyuz, where I didn't get Gene Vault. Ectogenesis is the "most of the time" Wonder (after Gene Vault). Even if not going full Purity, Gene Vault is still extremely handy due to the tech bumping you up with Purity 1 for incredibly durable Explorers early-game.

    No Wonder should be a 100% no-brainer. That said, I'm not sure if it was overnerfed, or the bonuses simply streamlined. And I reserve judgement on the buffs to the other Wonders until I try them.
     
  5. SahintheFalcon

    SahintheFalcon Chieftain

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    I started with Civ 3, and I actually was upset that Civ 4's maps were smaller. I couldn't have as many cities! You can imagine how much of shock Civ 5 was to me then.
     
  6. tedeviatings

    tedeviatings Warlord

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    Chances are you don't get Ecto on Apollo if you don't rush it.
     
  7. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    WOW. It did not take long for the haters to hate the new patch. I guess you can't please everyone.

    Moderator Action: Please do not start trolling by calling those who dislike the patch "haters". This is not acceptable in our forums.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  8. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Which is how it should be. Wonders in a tech web should be about gearing for them. And about being worth the investment.
     
  9. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Looking forward to that!

    And it may be even harder to get now, as you can only have 1 trade route from your capital at that time (if the third city hasn't got it's depot yet). But I think it actually was quite well designed - a nice bonus for rushing it (with the off-chance of losing it to an AI) - now it seems like it's just not even worth the investment of getting that tech early anymore, which means it will be a wonder that a random AI will build.

    To be clear: I don't hate the patch, in fact I like everything about it except for the wonders - I think the trade route changes are one of the best things that they've done until now and I also think they did choose very reasonable thresholds for the additional trade routes.

    But if you disagree with my (or our, as most people seem to agree on the general notion of wonders still being weak/even weaker) position about the wonders, feel free to bring counter-arguments. The "First Impressions"-Part of the title is there for a reason - I'm very open to being convinced otherwise. ;) But it seems like the numbers speak a very clear language...
     
  10. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    I can't say 100% that I agree or disagree since I have not had a chance to try the patch yet. It appears that some wonders may be weak while others are ok. As soon as I do play with the new patch, I will let you know. :)
     
  11. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Also, the more I think about it, the more I actually quite like having a free Worker for every new City (r.e. Gene Vault). I'd actually bump up some other bonuses (like a Food bonus), but at a guess the aim for this patch was to redesign the Wonders. I fully expect further nerfs and buffs.

    WARNING: long post. Covers every Wonder though. Currently playing through and checking out changes. Also got a Starships interactivity popup, heh. A bit more than what I expected out of the cross-over, which is neat. I wonder what playing Starships would grant me in BE . . .

    -------------------------------------​

    One Wonder that definitely seems out of place is the Ansible (leaf tech, outer ring), which lets you gain Affinity faster, but by that point you're likely to have either won or gained as much Affinity as you need.

    Ectogenesis Pod seems overnerfed as well, the bonus would be better as 1 Food per 6 population or so, but across all Cities you own. This would play into a wide playstyle specifically, when a lot of the redesigns favour tall.

    Holon Chamber is possibly too expensive (5 Floatstone), but the bonus is considerable and lategame-oriented. The only problem there is by then you're likely to be doing very well at Science output if you grabbed the right Virtues. Maybe with a pass on Virtues to not make Knowledge a great midgame strengthener (Prosperity into Industry is the best early-game, obviously, sometimes with a couple of Might pickups) might improve this situation because with a couple of the right mid-tier Knowledge Virtues (and Academies) your Science output rockets.

    Tectonic Anvil doesn't seem worth the Geothermal cost, especially given how rare Geothermal is on all maps barring Taigan (I don't think any others have such an abundance). That said, settling near Canyons is now worth it given the Production yield.

    Crawler got a hefty resource cost (5 Floatstone again?) but also a buff to its effects (+25% for Buildings as well as Wonders). Mass Driver is also a good defensive Wonder now especially for an already-strong City, but seems a bit out of the way of any strong tech path.

    Drone Sphere is . . . interesting. Very low Floatstone cost, but the effects seem situational (especially as how limited Expeditions are as the game goes on).

    Nanothermite seems very, very interesting on paper but I'd need to confirm what Ranged and Air attacks it buffs; all of them or just units stationed on that City. Still a unique design direction, which is decent.

    Stellar Codex is useless so long as Orbital Coverage is stupidly easy to get. Maybe useful for extremely specialised strategies especially considering early availability. Xenomalleum seems interesting. A lot of resources, but it doesn't do much else and is on the outer ring. Perhaps a clutch lategame pickup assuming the game drags on.

    Armasail has the ridiculous Floatstone cost but also has a very potent defensive benefit, especially in Domination games (for your Capital). Again, placement in tree restricts availability but nothing should be an easy pick.

    New Terrain Myth is better than it was before in terms of benefits, and also incentivises City trading instead of Station trading (especially given how potent Station trading can get with the Industry Virtue tree). However, is also dependent on those routes. Bonus could also be increased given cost (and sitting on useless tech) without balance concerns. Deep Memory is also potentially useful, but has an excessive resource cost once again (Firaxite this time, on a Purity tech. Possibly to make a use for Firaxite in a solely-Purity playthrough?).

    Human Hive is decent. Low resource cost as well. Not much more to say there. Promethean is good on high-population Cities, but possibly doesn't go far enough otherwise.

    The Resurrection Device and Xenonova are possibly my favourite redesigns. The existing problems of outer ring availability also persist, but at this point that's probably an intentional design choice. The entire tech tree is never going to be available or even viable at the highest levels of play. It can't be given how large it is. The aim should be to maximise potential coverage, which requires more work from Firaxis. But back to the Wonders; each of them reward a particular playstyle by a moderate / large amount. This is good design. The resource costs are also acceptable, low Geothermal and moderate Xenomass (as that tends to come in larger deposits).

    Xenodrome seems a bit niche, but given the changes to Aliens this patch may also be viable again screaming Alien hordes. Problem is levelling up Affinity also handles Aliens (by smashing them sideways) and also Alien Ethics is a far-out tech to research.

    Archimedes Lever also seems a bit out of place, as well as lacklustre for cost. 10 damage a turn isn't going to help a rush when it only takes two to three turns of dedicated damage to bring down a City. Then again it wasn't much good previously either. I prefer the new design, but the benefits are underwhelming.

    Quantum Computer is interesting, but delays Weather Satellites (and possibly others) like the Space Russians do. Balance / design pass on Orbitals required at this point. Memetwork is interesting, but doesn't go far enough. It's also wasted on Wonders as as far as I know no Wonder has an Affinity requirement.

    Cynosure is interesting, and of obvious benefit to a Supremacy player. Nice to see something that strengthens specific Affinity gameplay, though at this point Harmony is starting to be left behind. That said, Bytegeist looks to be a decent pickup, especially as Virtue Synergies can stack up pretty damned nicely. As the game progresses into midgame this would unlock a significant amount of Synergies quite a bit faster (considering scaling Culture cost - you wouldn't need the fifth out of five Virtues, a.k.a. the most expensive one).

    Master Control is solid, accessible rather early (especially considering necessity of Computing). Rewards intensive Worker use and even synergises with Gene Vault. Panopticon kept the important effect of its design, which I find very useful especially against well-entrenched enemies. No complaints there, and prevents easy Satellite deployment against that City. Solid Wonder.

    Markov Eclipse is also similarly accessible and now has a fantastic effect. I loved the Bushido rule for Japan in CiV, and here it is on a Wonder I can obtain regardless of my playstyle (and especially on a Contact Victory). Possibly my third favourite redesign out of all of them.​

    -------------------------------------​

    tl;dr: whew, that took a while. Some good, some bad, most could do with a further balance pass. They're definitely more interesting than they were previously. I'll take this over what they were, but I'll be disappointed if they never get touched again.
     
  12. JokerJace

    JokerJace Prince

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    People wanted wonders that are more awe inspiring and yes, they really did improve some wonders... But what in the name of hell makes them still think at this point that it's a good idea to take 3 of the wonders that have been broadly appreciated (which almost equals the total number of acceptable pre-patch wonders) and make them worse than most of the terrible pre-patch ones. I don't get it. They would have been infinitely worse even without the cost increase. I just don't get it.
     
  13. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Which ones do you consider worse, out of interest?
     
  14. JokerJace

    JokerJace Prince

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    Some are insignificantly worse, but Xenomalleum, Gene Vault and Ectogenesis Pod stick out. They have been butchered.
     
  15. Manannan

    Manannan Prince

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    It sounds like they could have stood to be a bit more... hmm, what's the word? Audacious? :)

    Edit: Does it strike anyone else as odd that some of these wonders seem geared towards tall play, but that nothing has been done to make tall play appealing in the slightest beyond that? Pity. Oh well, maybe I'll reinstall next patch.
     
  16. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Well, the Gene Vault and Ectogenesis Pod were very powerful so they probably needed to be nerfed a bit. Unfortunately, it seems that they got nerfed too much.

    Wonder balance is a tricky business because it is not always easy to find that sweet spot between overpowered and underpowered.
     
  17. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I consider Gene Vault fair now. Tacking on additional benefits might help it, but doesn't suit the design.

    Ectogenesis Pod I missed from my post, but I consider it a situational pickup that is indeed far worse than it was. I'd lower the bonus but apply it to every City you own, personally. Will edit that in above.

    Xenomalleum wasn't exactly useful beforehand. Now at least if you go that far out of the tech web you get some hefty resources in return. That benefit is doubled if you go far enough down the Might Virtue tree as well.

    I don't agree with "butchered" for any of them, the worst-off of the three is definitely Ectogenesis though.
     
  18. JokerJace

    JokerJace Prince

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    For me wonders have always been about high risk - high reward. So it's okay to make them strong since you wind up with too many wasted turns if you fail to get the wonder (which can actually cause you to lose the game). Overpowering them is not really that much of an issue (in reasonable extent of course). The better a wonder is, the more likely it is that many players will compete for it. So the one that ignores it can actually be the one with the biggest advantage. Also, because of this, many wonders can be mutually exclusive to build in practice. All in all this provides interesting strategic choices and requires you to read your opponents. Useless crap wonders do not. they add NOTHING to the game. So turning more wonders into poop is not a clever thing to do from my point of view - no matter the balance considerations. The balance should be in the risk / reward ratio and the mutual exclusiveness.

    But maybe that's where the pproblem starts. Because of the dumb AI, you can get any wonder you want. Just one more instance that shows how the problems of this game are connected to each other.
     
  19. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    I like powerful wonders. But there are always the players who complain that if a wonder is too strong that it "breaks the game" because they can beeline for the wonder and win the game too easily in their opinion.
     
  20. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Gene vault require you to make at least 5 more cities AFTER you make gene vault to be worth it. I'm not sure how likely that is in my experience. That's a wonder I was usually making around 4 cities and 9 cities is usually the max I go for.

    Ectogenesis Pod could get some love if it applied to all city. Applying to your already big city only makes it poor.

    I'll never make Xenomalleum. Titanium has always been easy to get in my experience and I won't spend that much production for 5 petroleum. And I don't care for geothermal since its biggest use is to make wonders I'm not interested in anyway.
     

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