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First Look: Russia (unofficial Let's Play)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Brackenspore, Oct 2, 2016.

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  1. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

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    What I think people are missing about Lavra is that, while it replaces the Holy Site, it does not give Russia a religious focus or a significant upper hand when it comes to religion. It is a GP-oriented and expansion-oriented district that happens to replace the Holy Site.

    Incidentally, I think modern Russian society is pretty religious, at least compared to Western Europe.
     
  2. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    As with all unique districts, it's half-cost, doesn't count towards city limit of districts and doesn't increase the district cost. It gives huge religious focus before any abilities.
     
  3. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    I don't see too much opportunity for that. And it still means you must either be behind or be barely - or not even that - equal in technology. For what? One whole point of science per turn? With culture, I see even less of an opportunity. Then this relies on trade routes, which weakens it further; it depends on your starting location / continent. But, really, you don't plan a unique ability around doing bad. That is bad game design.

    Then there is the Cossack, which is underpowered with its +5 strength (which is low) for defensive wars - again, planned around doing badly.

    There is also an ability that makes bad terrain - notice a trend? - marginally better. But I would surely prefer grasslands.

    And finally there is the Lavra, which... Might as well do nothing. Yes, it is unique and therefore built faster - so is Japan's. That's an inherent part of it being unique, not of it being the Russian unique.
     
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  4. SpaceCommunist

    SpaceCommunist Warlord

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    Ah yes, when I think of Tolstoy or Chekhov, I think of friends to the Eastern Orthodoxy.

    Um, really? Russia isn't going to be generating Faith at the same rate as, say, Spain or India, civs geared directly for religion. Just because they get a small Faith bonus from tundra (terrain which, might I add, still isn't exactly the greatest to use) doesn't suddenly mean they're going to be getting huge Faith yields.

    Which leads to your next point...

    What this is based on is the apparent UA, the one that gives Faith on Tundra tiles. As much as you'll be getting +1 Faith on Tundra tiles, that still means:

    1. You need a moderate to large population to cover all those tiles

    2. Find ways to use those tiles without becoming backwards

    Growing a decent pop is one thing (and arguably goes against the idea of wide gameplay), but Tundra is Tundra no matter what - it's not nearly going to be as efficient as Grassland or fresh water tiles for getting a healthy city.

    Oh, I'm ignoring facts to fit my narrative? Let's take a look at the facts that you seem to happily ignore:

    1. Taking all this time to focus more on Faith than anything else leaves you up to invasion. This is going to especially be a major factor considering that, historically speaking, spamming cities + large cities (think Shoshone) pisses people off. Taking up all the Great Prophets, too, with your Holy Sites and Faith, if you manage to accomplish it, will only serve to piss off people who wanted Great People of their own. And of course, you're always going to be dealing with Spain, who'll view you as a heretic and use that to gain combat advantages.

    2. Let's compare a civ that don't have a basic Faith yield in one of their traits - say America - to Russia here. Where America doesn't start with that bonus but can acquire one over time, Russia can get +1 or so from Tundra tiles. That gives them an edge, yes, but it's not a very big one, because both of them can use those buildings/districts/improvements/policies/gov't types/etc. that boost Faith. If America and Russia were to build all the same buildings, Russia would only ever slightly be ahead of America. Even Scythia, who has only one Faith-related trait, can acquire the same amount of Faith per turn as Russia, if not more, just at a slightly slower rate.

    Even if the Tundra gets +1 Production and Faith, they're still going to find stiff competition from tiles that provide more Food. They're not bad, but they aren't fantastic.

    [citation needed]

    Catch up or beeline, but never quite get ahead. That's what kills me about the LA, is that at best you'll have a slight boost that might get you to the top 3 spot, but that'll just leave you in the same position as other civs that not only got to that place on their own, but still get an additional leader bonus to use - yours is just essentially null and void at that point.

    It's interesting all right, but I don't feel like it's particularly strong. You can, at best, mix and match an early religion, but you're going to be too preoccupied with defending your territory from civs like Spain and Scythia than worrying about building that religion, unless you take Defender of the Faith (which you shouldn't have to; Russia has historically been excellent at defense, yet it gets no bonuses to that until Cossacks in the industrial era, and a weak bonus at that...).

    It doesn't even feel like a "different" strategy, it just feels like getting as much Faith as possible. That's a classic religious strategy.

    Why do you think Greece is lackluster on higher levels? That Wildcard bonus + Culture from suzerainty is massive.
     
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  5. darko82

    darko82 Emperor

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    The video is not working...
     
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  6. SpaceCommunist

    SpaceCommunist Warlord

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    Uh oh, the video's been made private.

    Either the uploader must feel like they've attracted too much attention, or he's had a talking to from Firaxis...

    God, I wish they'd just go ahead and confirm/deny/explain the case for Russia already. If there's not a First Look video today ima be...well, really anxious, but not furious I guess.
     
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  7. upi00r

    upi00r Warlord

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    Any info from China source how many reveals this week and when?
     
  8. Big J Money

    Big J Money Emperor

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    Another minor nice thing about the UA is that your tundra cities in MP won't be as desirable for opponents. I wonder if they factor this into the AI's desire for cities; what resources they will get out of them.
     
  9. Denkt

    Denkt Reader

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    Given that cities do no longer have any long term cost, even cities in poor terrain may be worth it.

    Russia basically treat thundra as plains who also give faith. Thundra is much better in civilization VI then it was in V due to the following:
    *You can plant forest now so you can actually improve thundra
    *Thundra parthenon give an adjancency bonus to the holy site so you do not need to work the thundra to get the huge faith bonus
    *In the long term all cities are good
    *Food is a much more common resources as farms are much more productive

    Russia is a strong religious civ because:
    *UA district do not use up a district slot (so all cities can build a religious site).
    *UA district is half priced.
    *Probably have thundra bias, if it can get the pathernon it will become a faith powerhouse.
    *Likely to get the first prophet
    *Many other civs with religious advantages have to wait a long time before they can be used.
    *Extra faith from working thundra.

    Cossack, we do not know if there is anything more to this unit, it may have higher base strength and better mobility for example. Longship do have more strength and that is never mentioned.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  10. Theophilos

    Theophilos Warlord

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    Come on guys, seriously, Russia is NOT known for its scientific achievements in history when compared to other countries! Heck even Peter the Great, he is known for trying to westernize Russia! What does this mean!? Russia is behind in many areas of society compared to Europe! Russia for most of its history was behind the rest of the western world! It is only after the bloody revolution, after World Wars, in the Soviet Union, which is a brief period in Russian history, that they were able to become a leader in technology. (although today, again they are falling behind).

    They have a very clear history of not being in step with western civilization. (not that they deserve these abilities exactly... who wants to play as nation that has abilities only to act as a safety net to bad play?)

    It also has only a brief literary history compared to other western countries. Same with musical compositions. Russian society did not attend the "Age of Enlightenment" or the"Renaissance" along with the West with fervor. (they hardly had time, they took awhile to consolidate) In art of the brush, they are more worthy and throughout had a very strong culture in this area.

    If you look at it in religious point of view, after the fall of the Romans of the east, the Russians became the new champion of the Orthodox faith. There is a reason that the term "Holy Rus" exists, and has been used from as far back as Saint Maximus the Greek. At times Russians might see themselves as the Third Rome. But even more, as a New Israel. They were the last bastion of the faith. Look at what Saint Sergius of Radonezh writes, and his legacy. Religion was intertwined with their culture, but by the late 19th century, it is weakening in the upper class of intellectuals (although still a force). To be Russian one must be Orthodox (or so it is claimed).

    I think this painting perfectly expressed the concept:



    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    People keep claiming that Russia is some science giant and attacking its religious history as insignificant, as if Russia only exists in the 21st century, and the rest of its history is forgotten. I suppose it is no surprise, the failed Soviet system certainly tried to stamp out and persecute this history and type of society in a most violent, arrogant, and cruel way. But lets not judge a country by only its 21st century history, but look at its entire picture.
     
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  11. indradiva

    indradiva Warlord

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    People, I think you are misunderstanding Peter's LA. It's a situational LA, but it doesn't make it bad. You don't hammer nails with a microscope, do you? For the LA to work, you need sea access (that's very fitting for historical Peter) and beelining certain techs and civics (Mercenaries for Trade Confederation (+1 sci +1 cul for international trade routes, nice synergy with the LA; Exploration for Merchant Republic for +2 Trade Routes; Currency and Celestial Navigation are self-explanatory) Build 3-4 cities near the coast, build a harbor and a CH in each of them+ maybe a Colossus wonder, and you already have your 10 trade routes! As a side effect you'll get many GMs that give you gold, envoys and other goodies. Use the envoys to suzerain city-states, prioritizing cultural, scientific and commercial ones. Use gold to buy units or patronage great people (it is actually wise to build a Campus, because many GS require Campus to activate their abilities. Don't forget about GEs too, they also give boosts to science). Spread your tentacles and leech science and culture and profit from Trade Confederation and its upgrades.
    All of this won't function if you are landlocked, though. Then you simply ignore Peter's ability and concentrate on building up religion. Here you can go various ways, so it's hard to give general advice. As you can see, the devs give us actually two Russias in one. One is Peter's Russia, the other religious Russia (you won't really have the opportunity to build Lavras while building your trade empire, again very fitting for Peter).
     
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  12. teqofc

    teqofc Warlord

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    If Ivan the Terrible was the leader then Streltsy would be appropriate as an alternative UU. With Peter I as leader this wouldn't make sense as he witnessed what the Streltsy did to put Sofia in power as regeant when he was a boy and then years later the attempted overthrow by the Streltsy 1698 while Peter was in Europe. On his return he had around two thousand of them tortured and executed and for the most part were disbanded soon after.

    I enjoy playing Russia in Civ5 but Catherine II is a lot easier on the eyes than Peter I will be :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  13. Abraxis

    Abraxis Emperor

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    Many people don't seem to appreciate that a crutch is only a crutch when needed by the injured. It can also be a pole to vault much higher than would otherwise be possible. Not needing to commit one place, means you can commit better elsewhere. You can't do everything.
     
  14. SpaceCommunist

    SpaceCommunist Warlord

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    While I'm somewhat hesitant to argue with someone who is already convinced of his/her own conclusion - not to mention, someone who can't seem to distinguish the 20th Century from the 21st Century - I think this needs to be said.

    You're saying that the nation that took man to the stars is not worthy of being considered a science giant? The nation that brought us scientists such as Mendeleev, Korolev, Pavlov, Basov, this is a nation that is not home to many a great scientist? The nation that gave us the satellite, the space station, the nuclear power grid, high power rocketry, manned spaceflight, interplanetary exploration - all of this, while even the most industrial nations in the world (the United States, Great Britain, etc.) could only dream of catching up. This is not a scientific powerhouse?

    You say this because the Soviet era was relatively short compared to the 1000+ years of Tsardom and religion. Should we, then, have England be a medieval state, despite its highest accomplishments as an international powerhouse in the colonial era? Since the reign of the British Empire was certainly shorter than England's 1000+ age of feudalism and religion, we should simply focus more on that part of English history instead.

    Am I saying that religion has been insignificant in Russian history? Certainly not - the relations between the Tsardom and the Eastern Orthodoxy were strong, and in many ways one relied on the other. Superstition and fear of God ran deep in Russian society, and became integral in many of its aspects, even well into the Soviet period. But that does not mean that we must completely ignore the sciences and industrialism of contemporary Russian history, especially when much of it saw to humanity's advancement to the stars. Furthermore, just because a nation has a highly important history with religion (i.e. America) doesn't mean that should be its main feature when it has done so much more for itself and the world.

    Hell, the whole damn point of a science victory in game is going to the stars. Who else but Russia (and America) can say they brought humanity closest to that goal? If any civ in the game deserves to be geared towards a science victory, it would surely be Russia.

    But even disregarding the scientific prowess and industrialism that put Russia on the world stage. You say culturally Russia only saw "brief" contributions to literature. However "brief" the golden age of Russian arts may have been, you cannot deny their impact. Chekhov, Tolstoy, Pushkin, Dostoyevsky - these are men whose works are still examined and utilized as the basis for many a great work today. As an actor, I can tell you the impact of playwrights and actors from the bear in the east - Stanislovski and his acting method, for example, is a big name in theatre not just in Europe, but across the world. But because all this was "brief" (despite the golden age of Russian arts stretching from 1800 to the late 1900's, roughly twice as long as the Soviet era), you just conclude that it's not relevant enough to feature as part of the civ.

    Much of your argument is because Russia has historically been backwards. This presents some problems, however:

    1. Why would you ever focus on emphasizing a civ's backwardness over the aspects that brought it to the world stage?

    2. If the idea behind it is to show that Russia developed a culture of its own not related to Western Europe, then surely that means we should emphasize on culture instead of religion?

    Really, if you want to have religion made note of in Russia's uniques, that's fine - +1 Faith from Tundra not only recognizes the prominence of Eastern Orthodoxy in Russia, but in a very clever way, also gives a nod to the natives of Siberia that became incorporated into the empire over time. These peoples, with their small beliefs and superstitions, played a major role in the development of Russian society, and had many of their aspects incorporated into Eastern Orthodoxy as well.

    But to say that Russia should get a district replacement that not only reemphasizes what was made clear with the UA (tile acquisition+religious history), but does so extremely poorly, all while in its place Russia could have something much more useful to reflect on its modern history, something very much lacking in the alleged stats - to say that Russia should have this is absurd. Maybe, maybe they could be given additional Holy Site production boosts in their UA to emphasize this, but for goodness sake let the unique infrastructure be something useful.
     
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  15. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Looking at strategy.

    UA-extra territory is for settled cities only...you want to expand a lot peacefully
    Tundra-faith is early so you get the first pantheon
    production means it is worth working tundra hills and forests for an industrial bonus

    UI-its a UD so its spammable (no pop requirement, low cost, doesn't increase cost of other districts) which means
    Fast religion for russia (with HS linked bonuses like FTW, because all cities will have a HS)
    and
    Lots of faith...for religion victory/Great Persons/Theocracy based army

    Leader U-coasts, harbors, advanced friends, international trade, beelining all focus worthy, campus/theater, domestic routes, less advanced friends less useful....probably needs to be stronger

    UU-minimal effect (hopefully something hidden/to be added)
     
  16. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    Peter's LUA reminds me of Ethiopia's UA in Civ V. If it is useful, then you need it. If it isn't useful, then you don't need it.
     
  17. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    If you argue for or against the UA/ULA/UU whatever you have to look at the fact that it's a game and not a history simulator.
    For almost all civs you could argue that they should get a bonus to culture, because they were so influential (well, maybe but Scythia and Brazil aside) and also for faith. For science, that civ always combines with technology, you could also easily argue for half of the civs to have a large bonus to it: China, Sumeria, Japan, America, Germany, Greece, Arabia, Russia...
    But only Russia (and to lesser extend China and America) really fit a larger territory UA. So it does make sense to me that they didn't choose culture or science when thinking of the Russian UA.
    They ULA considers Peter's biography and not the history of Russia itself. It should not be affected by things that happened before and after Peter. Maybe it needs to be tweaked, we don't know that, but for sure it's very interesting to play and gives you a different approach to play the game. Such ULA/UA are in my opinion always preferable to flat and passive bonuses.
    Considering the Cossack UU, it's also good to look at the game and not history. We were missing a fast and versatile industrial age UU. Not many civs can be chosen for that (of the civs we have now in vanilla only Germany and France seem fitting for me). Keep in mind the Rough Rider isn't America's UU, but Teddy's. Cossacks may get extra movement (on open terrain or all the time) and may be the ideal destroyer of artillery and field cannons. It makes sense to me to have such a UU for a civ.
    Religion might not be the first thing you think of when thinking of Russia for many people. If that's right or wrong is debatable, but doesn't fit this thread. If you look at the whole Russia Unique pack, they might have thought 'Russia is strong from the beginning on and has snowball potential later on, so we want to give it a bonus in another direction.' It wouldn't make sense to give a building with extra culture or science, because that would work against the ULA and weaken both. So why not a synergy with the tundra ability and make Russia more of a religious/faith powerhouse?

    Edit: and isn't it nice that Kongo gets the bonus to cultural Great People?
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2016
  18. SpaceCommunist

    SpaceCommunist Warlord

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    The thing about giving Russia a science/culture UI is that Peter's ability is remarkably weak, even if you adopt the bee lining strategy. You'd have to get your caravans/cargo ships access to high powered civs, and depending on how you spawn that can be extremely useful or difficult. And even then, at best you'll probably only be getting +1 or +2 Science/Culture from each trade route. Furthermore, that's only going to one city, not all of them, so unless you can specialize your trading city to be both economic AND scientific/cultural somehow, you won't have much room for both. Adding a science/culture UI would help bolster yourself so that you won't need the crutch ability.

    And as for the UI - why not, then, give it a production building/district/improvement instead to synergize with the production part of its UA? And even then, they could add a quicker production bonus to Holy Sites in the UA while leaving room for a completely different UI that could do well in production/science/culture. Yes, it would trade off the benefits that unique districts get, but you'd still be able to get a fast religion while not necessarily being limited to that kind of playstyle.
     
  19. Vasire

    Vasire Chieftain

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    Terrain specific bonuses always make you question the starting position. Like in this case. Do I continue playing in this lovely desert or do I reroll until I get tundra?
     
  20. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    There are starting bias. Brazil always starts near Rainforests, Russia always starts near Tundra.
     
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