First Nations

Guynemer

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I am emphatically not a programmer, and just discovered this mod, but I had some thoughts on how the First Nations influence play.

One is just simple flavor: I think the names of the various nations could use updating. For example, Haudenosaunee instead of Iroquois, Ñuu Savi instead of Mixtec, Niimíipuu instead of Nez Perce, etc. Having these people call themselves by names other than their own upon first contact takes me out of the experience a little bit.

The other would be much more complex, which is that I feel like they should have a more active role. Even when playing peacefully, as I try to do, the only interactions are here's a convert/here are some slaves/here are some furs/I'll sell you some furs. I'd like to see them initiate war between each other more, maybe even establish new cities of their own in open spaces, etc. I'm not sure what limitations the game has for their AI, so this may not be realistic.
 

ConjurerDragon

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From a practical point of view most people would not know the native names of those tribes or confederacies and not recognize them when they encounter the "Niimlipuu" but rather think of Winnie the Poo. Neither from normal history lessons, nor from reading novels like Leatherstocking Tales or Winnetou which most people I know have at least read once and where you will find only the commonly used names.

From an ingame immersion point of view if does not make sense either - Yes, the people you encounter might call themselves by their true names when they introduce themselves.
But YOU - the european settler who has just arrived and struggles to understand them - you would only understand what your own language allows you to understand. And that is not much and often wrong.
As an example when hearing music in one song I always heard "Knights in white satin" while far later I actually read the lyrics and it was "Nights in white satin" and that is a misunderstanding within one language.When the first french Coureur des bois encounter some natives in the forests I very much doubt that they report to Champlain that they met the Haudenosaunee but rather the name that they understood which would be Iroquois.

And as a 3rd reason not to change the naming - when you play the english do you want to meet the french or les francais? Because why would the european not call themselves by their own names and use your language?
 

Nightinggale

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And as a 3rd reason not to change the naming - when you play the english do you want to meet the french or les francais? Because why would the european not call themselves by their own names and use your language?
Basically we use translated names because otherwise the diplomacy dialogue with certain civilizations could be problematic.



Taking this one step further, imagine BTS where you talk with the Nihonjin people. 99% of the English speaking world wouldn't have a clue to who they would be. Close to 100% knows the English name though.
 

Guynemer

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But Cherokee isn't what the Europeans called them, or what the Cherokee called themselves; it's what other nations (the Choctaw, if I remember correctly) called them.

Some English names are close enough (Choctaw being a good example) that it doesn't make much difference. Moreover, the English knew who the French, Portugese, etc. were at the time of colonization; they had no idea who the Iroquois/Haudenosaunee were.
 

<Nexus>

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Taking this one step further, imagine BTS where you talk with the Nihonjin people. 99% of the English speaking world wouldn't have a clue to who they would be. Close to 100% knows the English name though.
Err... Japanese? Just guessing since Nihongo=Japan.

The Cherokee alphabet is really crazy :crazyeye: Wonder who and how designed it? Randomly picked Latin and old-Slavic characters?

But on topic:
In GalCiv2 you could not communicate the other civs unless at least one of you has Universal Translator tech (or something else?). Till that you only saw gibberish.
Here in Col it could work like this: You meet a new civ. You see a gibberish greetings until a few turns are passed.
...not sure if that can be programmed.
 

ConjurerDragon

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Err... Japanese? Just guessing since Nihongo=Japan.

The Cherokee alphabet is really crazy :crazyeye: Wonder who and how designed it? Randomly picked Latin and old-Slavic characters?

Sequoyah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee#Language_and_writing_system

But on topic:
In GalCiv2 you could not communicate the other civs unless at least one of you has Universal Translator tech (or something else?). Till that you only saw gibberish.
Here in Col it could work like this: You meet a new civ. You see a gibberish greetings until a few turns are passed.
...not sure if that can be programmed.

That would be similar to Star Flight where your Communications Officer need to have a certain skill to understand more than silly noise and a LOT of skill to understand aliens perfectly.

However most indian tribes had a way to communicate the basics with foreign tribes or later european trappers. Either by sign-languages, e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plains_Indian_Sign_Language
or using a Lingua Franca (e.g. Nahuatl in Mexico).

In Civ and ColCiv you normally have full use of diplomacy and trading from the first successful contact simply because the timeframe is very compressed. When a scout or trapper would take a few months to get an idea how the fur to glasspearls exchange rate would be that would have happened within only a small part of a turn in ColCiv.

So either let it be like it is for simplicity, or use a comparable simple way,
e.g. first peaceful contact (random chance like usual): You get a greeting that is a third understandable. First peaceful contact with an experienced scout: 1/2 understandable, first successfully established mission 100%.
 

Nightinggale

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But Cherokee isn't what the Europeans called them, or what the Cherokee called themselves
I think you completely missed my point when you dig into details like that, but you did proof my point just fine. We can debate names for all eternity if we are to make them "perfect". I would rather spend my efforts on gameplay. Naming the civilizations the modern English names is ok in the English version of the game. You can like your own translation if you like where you write whatever names you want. Any string not translated will use English meaning if you make some "native names" translation, you only have to translate the names. However I'm not certain we would accept such a translation into the official releases.

Err... Japanese? Just guessing since Nihongo=Japan.
Nihon = land of the sun or Japan in English
Go = speaking or in this context language
Jin = person or people
Nihongo = the Japanese language
Nihonjin = the people of Japan
The name Japan is a translation error. The Portuguese were told about the kingdom of the east and wrote that the name of the islands is "land of the sun" in Chinese, which is (was at the time in the dialect?) Japong. That converted into Japan in Europe because accuracy in translation wasn't a big concern at the time.

You got the country, but you wasn't completely right about what you wrote, which is another argument against using non-English names in an English languaged game.

The Cherokee alphabet is really crazy :crazyeye: Wonder who and how designed it? Randomly picked Latin and old-Slavic characters?
Already answered that it was designed by some guy named Sequoyah. The story goes that he had obtained a Bible and was looking at it because he was fascinated by the concept of writing. Not knowing how to read, he designed his own, which first was one character for each word. When that failed, it became one character for each syllable. Since his Bible was "the right way to do it", he seemingly copied random characters without regard for the sounds of the characters because he couldn't read English.

The fact that the Cherokee managed to develop writing is significant. Not only did the creator write the thinking of how it was developed, we see what happened to Cherokee nation as they had the ability to write stuff instead of relying on memory and hearsay. They decided to have consensuses, which have luckily survived to present day. Here they wrote how many people and animals they had, but also significant buildings like printing press, newspaper, sawmills and so on. When somebody says Indians, we think of a western with tribal people living in teepees, but the Cherokee actually industrialized.

In GalCiv2 you could not communicate the other civs unless at least one of you has Universal Translator tech (or something else?). Till that you only saw gibberish.
Here in Col it could work like this: You meet a new civ. You see a gibberish greetings until a few turns are passed.
...not sure if that can be programmed.
I don't think programming it is the main issue. The main issue would be if it's worth it? I don't think so, partly because I don't think it really adds anything to the game. If it's "do something to unlock being able to speak with chief, hence unlock something to get gifts of first visit", then maybe, but I don't like that concept.

I think that amount of programming hours would be better spent elsewhere.
 

Tugboatspotter

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In GalCiv2 you could not communicate the other civs unless at least one of you has Universal Translator tech (or something else?). Till that you only saw gibberish.
Here in Col it could work like this: You meet a new civ. You see a gibberish greetings until a few turns are passed.
...not sure if that can be programmed.

I agree with Nightinggale in that it doesn't add anything. There is no strategic decision to be made in that you need it, and you need it asap.
 

<Nexus>

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You got the country, but you wasn't completely right about what you wrote, which is another argument against using non-English names in an English languaged game.
:yup: No disagreement here.
Already answered that it was designed by some guy named Sequoyah. The story goes that he had obtained a Bible and was looking at it because he was fascinated by the concept of writing. Not knowing how to read, he designed his own, which first was one character for each word. When that failed, it became one character for each syllable. Since his Bible was "the right way to do it", he seemingly copied random characters without regard for the sounds of the characters because he couldn't read English.
Wow! Than it is pretty impressive:hatsoff:
My first thought was: Did a missionary had some "revolutionary thoughts" :twitch:

I don't think programming it is the main issue. The main issue would be if it's worth it? I don't think so, partly because I don't think it really adds anything to the game. If it's "do something to unlock being able to speak with chief, hence unlock something to get gifts of first visit", then maybe, but I don't like that concept.
I didn't say that is a good idea , just something this whole thing reminded me of. A general thought to start brainstorming so maybe one crazy idea may leads to the next crazy idea and so on until you get something useful. Or maybe not :)
 
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