1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

First Opinions - Science is still the king. How to beat deity easily, no cheese.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Arilian, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. Arilian

    Arilian King

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    662
    Location:
    Hungary
    I played CIV 5 last week a LOT, trying out new civs, new VCs.
    Overall, I am very satisfied, the game is more diverse, there are fun new parts.
    I like trade routes, archeology, tourism.

    However, looking competitive, Science is still absolute best.

    I won 3 games around T280 in immortal, built lot of wonders, religion, trade, CS allies, etc.

    I run a comparative game in Deity, and after I failed to build any wonder, still easily won at T 235.

    Here is how. (Note steps are exactly the same as in Vanilla :()

    1. Library (not GL, it will gone at around t30 in deity) NC First, big Capital. (3-4 food or sea resource needed)
    2. Full Trad. No religion.
    3. 2-3 more City, food focus, some lux is needed but not much.
    4. Virtually no army if you are in a corner, otherwise 6-8 archer/CB.
    5. Don’t spend money to anything until Uni.
    6. Rush buy all Uni, start RA. Full Science specialists.
    7. Full Rationalism.
    8. Take any ideology that civs next to you might have for bonus.
    9. Rush buy public schools. new RAs. If you can build PT, do it, but it is not necessary.
    10. Beeline Plastics, Rush Buy Research Labs. You should have around 1K science here.
    11. Start bulbing all GS for Hubble. Build hubble. Bulb the last few tech.

    So the problem is that the new features are all interesting, they does not help you to win at all. If you can get some free Faith (CS q, NW etc) that helps you with 1-2 GS but that is all.

    I am ready to be convinced the power of reformatism, if you can beat T 240 in deity with full piety, and rush buying all Science building by faith, but I would not expect it will happen.
     
  2. Delodax

    Delodax Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    Science is such an integral part of all strategies. I don't know how it can be rebalanced to promote different approaches except willfully suboptimizing.
     
  3. Sidor1982

    Sidor1982 Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Poland
    So far I've noticed, that in BNW you can get a deity win without going rationalism (not possible on G&K last patch). You can go full patronage and commerce to get a diplo win and you also have a chance on going peaceful culture game (but it's difficulty is dependant on map size and the kind of AI's you get - smaller map equals greater chances of getting the victory before the AI launches, getting one wonder spamming AI and other non-wonder spamming AI's will make such a strategy very difficult). Of course these aren't instant wins (a lot of skills and some luck is always required) but still you can develop strategies basing on it (and not only rush NC, then XBows or Frigates and kill everyone strategy from preBNW patch).
     
  4. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    5,251
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Hidden Underground Volcano Lair
    I suspect a patch after a while will make it harder, just like in G&K.
     
  5. Brutus2

    Brutus2 Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    476
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Philadelphia, USA
    Science will always be crucial for any victory but I think now, once you reach the late game and have established a science lead and your economy and happiness are in good shape, you don't necessarily have to go for a spaceship win. All of the victory conditions are obtainable in a similar timeframe.

    My most successful BNW game so far has been with Babylon. Using that free great scientist for an Academy along with National College was huge. One military CS ally (even just friends), can keep you with a steady supply of units for defense allowing you to build/buy other things.

    Also, there are now so many ways to speed up GP rate. From policies, religion, ideology, buildings, wonders, and the +50% scientist rate Babylon gets I was just pumping out GS like crazy. After three very early Academies, I bulbed the rest and ended up winning a tourism victory.
     
  6. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2001
    Messages:
    1,845
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    As someone who only ever played Prince or below, some questions :)

    - Do you settle early Great Scientists or just bulb all of them?
    - What civ(s) did you play?
    - Besides rush-buying the science buildings, what buildings do you focus on?
     
  7. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2001
    Messages:
    1,845
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    That's true. For example, for culture victory, Parthenon is the only early wonder that helps, and its contribution to the victory is pittance - getting to late wonders and techs (especially Archeology, and then Flight, Radar and Internet) is much more important.
     
  8. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,794
    Location:
    Samara
    i've played 1 culture game so far where i've won in the early modern era
    i'd say louvre and uffizi helped a lot
     
  9. Delodax

    Delodax Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    I was thinking; would it be possible to balance the game around not directly focusing on science, I mean, if you don't, you are pretty much screwed after a thousand years or so.

    Consider going for an early military focus and not managing to conquer anyone, is there anything that can be done to catch up?

    Maybe, the player could focus on another thing such as religion, or culture or military and by doing so, generate science from a "special theme ability"? Possibly a military minded player would generate science by promoting units (could simulate technological breakthroughs as a side effect from military optimization and experience)? This might be overpowered though, since then the military minded player would gain access to both a large standing force and top notch technology.
     
  10. aluelkdf

    aluelkdf Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2012
    Messages:
    420
    Science will always be king, in the game and in real life. Science allows military development, and also allows development in all areas such as culture, tourism, economics etc.

    The Arabs would not be rich if science didn't discover oil and make it an important part of the modern world. The French would have never been able to build the Eiffel tower (cultural) without the technology to do it. America would not have as much tourism if it lacked technology to build Disney World and there were no airplanes for people to visit.

    A real life example of how important science is is the end of WWII. The Soviets and Americans didn't care about getting culture, money or diploatic benefits. The main focus was getting their hands on as much technology as possible before the other civ did.
     
  11. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Messages:
    2,794
    Location:
    Samara
    well, arabs didnt invent drilling. they had no technology
    they got investments from the West and in 50 years scyscrapers have risen where nomad tents stood.

    soviets werent super-advanced too. almost the whole soviet industrialization was made by western engineers and businessmen.
    and ussr continued to buy machinery to its end, paying gold and oil for it

    so, science isnt the main thing IRL
     
  12. Arilian

    Arilian King

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2008
    Messages:
    662
    Location:
    Hungary
    Indeed, IRL science flows faster between nations, than in CIV.

    I actually try to for science in every single stategy game, and it never failed me.
    I like science.

    The BnW going in a good direction with Science caravans.
    But it is not enough.

    The following should be still nerfed imho:

    1. Late game mass bulb with 12 GS. Your GS either found an academy, or die in old age in 10 turns.
    2. Mass RA. Reasearch agreements should be part of the game, and the base rate seems to be ok, but PT+Rat bonus makes them too strong.
     
  13. Zednaught

    Zednaught Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    86
    A diplo win doesn't seem like it requires as much science now because of how voting may trigger. To reach the countdown fastest, rationalism will probably get you to the last era faster, but patronage or commerce should both work fine.

    Culture benefits greatly from reaching the end of the tree, so rationalism still helps, but aesthetics is tempting, and as might be piety, to take the reformation belief that let's you buy great people. Poland probably has it easier by being able to pursue an extra tree.
     
  14. Martinus

    Martinus Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2001
    Messages:
    1,845
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    That's true, but Globalisation still helps a lot.
     
  15. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2009
    Messages:
    5,225
    Gender:
    Male
    I attempted a culture victory with Portugal and had the city that most people like to visit (because of the most tourism per turn) in the early eras, but then the other civs out teched and built all the new wonders. I even had great engineers ready to get the new wonders for tourism but the wonder spamming ais kept building the wonders earlier than me because they would get the required tech for the wonders first. I no longer generated the most tourism per turn.
     
  16. Pengui6668

    Pengui6668 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    50
    It's almost like you need science to win.

    GTFO!
     
  17. Pengui6668

    Pengui6668 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    50
    Sure it is, but you can't buy technologies in Civ, so you have to research it yourself.

    (I suppose you could, but it would have to be done with faith, as opposed to gold or resources. Unless GS can be bought with gold, which I haven't seen. Come to think of it, I dunno if you can buy GS with faith either...)
     
  18. Lyoncet

    Lyoncet Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,676
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Yes, science is pretty much the one-stat-to-rule-them-all of Civ. But the real imbalancing factor isn't really tech per se. It's the crushing power of high-beaker civilizations. Therefore, the best way to do it would be, as the last few posters mentioned, to increase the rate of technological "seepage" from tech leaders to the rest of the world. Things like trade route tech bonuses, the Scholars in Residence proposal, and spies (sort of) are all there to offset the dominance of high-beaker civs, but the fact of the matter is they're far too little to have much effect.

    You could conceivably re-balance the game just by tweaking these. For example, you could implement a perma-Scholars in Residence, which would reduce tech X's cost by, say, 2% for each civ that has discovered tech X, plus another 1% for each tech researched that tech X is a prerequisite for. Scale it for map size. Also trade route beakers could be kicked up.

    That way, we wouldn't have this beakers über alles gameplay component. Focusing on beakers would still be a totally viable strategy, but you could also pursue other avenues. As it is, doing less than maximum beakers usually means playing wrong. And in a 4X game, any strategy that's just better than the others is a gameplay flaw. This one's just so prevalent across the genre it's hard to notice sometimes.

    It's not a problem that you need science to win. It's a problem that BPT is in most cases does more to make you win easier, faster than anything else you could focus on.
     
  19. MoloMowChow

    MoloMowChow Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    2
    I'm afraid as a new player I don't understand the abbreviations. NC first? Start RA?
     
  20. Piobmhor

    Piobmhor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2013
    Messages:
    46
    NC is National College, and RA is Research Agreement. Here is a handy link that gives you all the abbreviations used by players.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=442106
     

Share This Page