First shadow game - Emperor - Gilgamesh of Sumeria

[Genghis the Barbarian]

Hello wonderful CFC forum members!

Partially due to Henrik vids, partially due to AI Survivor (of which I'm an active contributor), partially due to lurking, and partially due to burnout from Civ5 (which was my main civ game during my more formative years), I'm looking to try to get back into Civ4.

Every time I've tried to do this myself I've failed, so... I'll try to enlist help from the experts.

Decided to roll a random Pangaea game, and ended up with Gilgamesh of Sumeria. My impression is that he is an average leader - a wonderful civ, a really strong UB... but also Protective which is annoying. However he might be a good "get my feet wet" leader, as his starting techs are forgiving, he has good early game defense, and he doesn't really have any crutches (except for perhaps Creative).

Here is my start:

Using BUFFY/BUG.

Now, I see I have clearly rolled a Fishing start. Based off of past lurking, this appears to be almost "too" much food - i.e. I won't need it for a while and can certainly share my seafood. Now, I know I will easily have enough food to work the Silver, but ofc settling on the silver for the early boost is an option too. My instinct is to move on Silver because the early boost is far more important particularly because I have a lot of techs to research (Fishing, Mining/BW, hunting for furs, etc.) and lots of workboats/workers/fog busters to build - commerce won't be too bad of an issue especially if I can chop out GLH and also benefit from my UB.

Don't think the warrior can scout in a manner that helps decide my settling decision, so I'd probably move it 1SE for maximal scouting.

Thoughts?

I don't want to attach the WB save yet because I don't want to risk spoiling myself (I know there's the spoiler tag but IDK if I could resist, I'm notorious for always wanting to find out what happens in the end of movies/books among my personal circles lol)

 

[sampsa]

I would go on the silver. Such starts are a bit slow especially for non-fishing starters, but the extra on city center will help. Depending on the rest of the BFC maybe no worker, but warrior-boat-boat whip settler.

 

[Fippy]

Silver and furs is great, pretty sure you can actually make use of all your here.
Micro gets interesting on seafood starts..let's see how your bfc will look like first

 

[Izuul]

Getting both plains furs and plains silver is pretty rare in my experience. Quite frequently those are tundra. I like the start - it has a nice novelty factor. I'm curious to see the surrounding land as you are clearly near one of the poles (likely north).

 

[Genghis the Barbarian]

Silver and furs is great, pretty sure you can actually make use of all your here.
Micro gets interesting on seafood starts..let's see how your bfc will look like first

Because of this, would you recommendation be SIP over moving on Silver?

 

[Fippy]

Because of this, would you recommendation be SIP over moving on Silver?

There's something interesting in SIP with worker & mining + BW first,
but i really dunno if it's competitive with settle on silver..without sandbox testing.

 

[sampsa]

Main problem with SIP+worker is what do you work? Silver @size1 I guess.

 

[drewisfat]

SIP easy. Silver + seafood + furs + 5 good cottages is a very strong commerce capital, so there's ideas with fast CRE library and maybe even an academy.

Settling on silver is silly. The extra "speed" from the base hammer is squandered at the start because of the technology/tile situation.

 

[sampsa]

So what is your tech path if SIP? Worker first, what size settler?

Oh and you are silly!

 

[Genghis the Barbarian]

Settling on silver is silly. The extra "speed" from the base hammer is squandered at the start because of the technology/tile situation.

My one thing is, wouldn’t the tech/tile situation make the extra speed more valuable, not less?

I’ve always thought about civ as a game where you have to balance tempo (fast starts) with scaling (longer term potential), and this is a start which seems naturally heavier on the scaling but slower on the tempo. Wouldn’t the high tempo move be the play?

 

[drewisfat]

fishing -> bw
Settler timing depends on scout finding something, but probably size 4 or 5. We have a super capital and if the next city has to be far away, that's more manageable than usual with CRE and TW.

You're the silly one advocating for an opening you admitted leads to warrior first, which you've also said is never optimal!

GtB the problem is unless there's something worth improving to the west you won't have the techs right away for worker-first to do much besides road or build a farm you'll barely touch before replacing. Seafood only starts are tricky. The naturally slower start of SIP gives worker first much less idle because there's a mine to improve and then working the mine pushes you to BW faster. The inside forum joke is that Sampsa always says to settle on gold/silver and I never do. Let Fippy be the judge, I'll be too busy to help shadow much over the holidays anyways.

 

[Genghis the Barbarian]

Spoiler Played to T27, stopped after BW research :

I opted for Team Sampsa here, and well...

I am now Gilgamesh of Silveria!

Tech path was Fishing-Mining-BW, stopped playing after finishing BW and revolting into Slavery. Built a Warrior while waiting for Fishing, and then two Workboats.

Buddhism went T8 - clear sign of a religious AI.

Met Peter T3, he is SUPER close, like, directly to my south. Met Mansa to my east T12, he founded Hinduism T19, of course my spy points are on him.

As you can see, a LOT of good city sites. Getting the Wine/wet corn spot is my highest priority before I lose it to Peter.

I think I have two options - 1) Focus on GLH and get myself a nice coastal empire, or 2) Construction/Vulture attack on Peter. Any thoughts? For next tech path I'm strongly leaning towards Pottery so I can start working cottages.

I have stone but with this start I don't think Mids is a huge deal.

 

[Izuul]

Pyramids is always a consideration with stone and cheap libraries. I think you could easily get it.

 

[Fippy]

I wouldn't go for cottages this early..good commerce situation without them, and big wonder plans
You can play this any way you like (on Emp), vultures + cats sounds a bit complicated compared to HAs.

Hunting + AH looks good (finding out if HAs are actually an option), or sailing + masonry.

 

[Plains-Cow]

Stone and all of those forests means Pyramids, and Pyramids means early Representation civic. Getting early Representation civic means stronger specialists and happiness without stressing Monarchy (especially with all of this rich food). It will also set you up for bulbing and faster golden ages. Swap into Great Person-generating civics during the Golden Ages too and bulb/academy/trade mission your way to a superior tech lead to stomp the AI.

 

[sampsa]

@Genghis the Barbarian western spot certainly on stone. I would forget GLH, it's almost a last resort for me on pangaea. If you want wonders you should go Mids. Pangaea should mostly be about war though.

 

[Fippy]

Good point with GLH..i guess it's fun building it, rare to get those starts on Pangaea

 

[Genghis the Barbarian]

So this game went off the rails a bit...

Spoiler Around 200 AD :

Of course, I was silly to write off Mids like that. Thanks for letting me know how obvious that play was.

After my previous screenshot, I thought about things and decided my best bet was to rush Mids, go Rep, and then Cuir the world. Unfortunately, Peter settle his namesake city kinda in my face and I decided to take St. Petersburg and Moscow as my 5th and 6th city. Ideally I'd have HAs but if not then Construction would do. (Should I have gone Police State instead if my plan was an earlyish attack?)

So, I whipped a Settler into a Worker (that settler became Wine+Corn+Furs city), then a workboat, then chopped out next Settler (which went on Stone). After that I built a Lighthouse then chopped out Mids.

My tech path was Sailing into AH to check for Horses. Having no Horses, Construction was the play. I first teched Masonry for Mids, then Hunting for Furs, then Writing for cheap libraries, then Iron Working (I had no Copper so it was extremely likely I'd have nearby Iron). Found Iron on the exact spot I was planning to settle and settled that spot. Did a 1 turn Pottery detour before beelining Construction.

Here is where things got hairy. I met Joao T39... then met a closeby Cyrus on T42. AND THEN CYRUS INSTANTLY BEGAN PLOTTING.

I have always hated Immortals due to AI survivor, but I hate Immortals even more now:

Cyrus DoWed me (I tried converting to Hindu and then begging a tech from him but to no avail), and bribed Peter to also attack me.

I nearly quit then and there, but the good news was that I was already preparing to attack Peter, so I had a Cat+Vulture+Sword army ready. I retook Eridu (which became a useless city for the remainder of this conflict due to my corn getting pillaged).

Peter turned out to be pathetically weak. Cyrus basically Wang Konned both of us, and I took St. Petersburg and Moscow easily and then peaced out with Peter (taking an additional 70 gold for my troubles). I was also able to trade techs with Mansa, getting MC for CoL and Currency - believe I also got Alpha from him.

Cyrus was... thornier. I had some pretty crap luck for some reason, even temporarily losing Eridu again. However I soldiered on, sacked the Persian city of Susa, and then gave it back (plus CoL) for peace. (It helped that Cyrus was a little too attached to his 4 strength immortals. Good thing Persia doesn't have War Chariots!)

So, its 200 AD now. Cyrus doesn't plot at Pleased thankfully so I'm safe from him (especially since we are both Hindu, which I believe was a shrewd decision on my part despite two fanatics being in this game). I also have horses. The good news is Justin and BK are in the game and I have my little corner to hide from the religious wars. I'm thinking of going Cuirs here, any tips on recovery? How do I maximize great people here, especially since the engineer (from mids) is polluting my pool? Any wonders to attempt? (If I get a GE perhaps I go for MoM?) How is my pacing for Emperor?

Also, should I maybe consider Knights as well, particularly since this is Emperor?

(On a smaller note, how do I get rid of those tags?)

 

[Genghis the Barbarian]

Also, I will now post the WB save:

 

[a pen-dragon]

On a smaller note, how do I get rid of those tags?

Alt+S and click on a tile with a sign will make the sign disappear. Then either press Alt+S again to leave sign making mode or click on any tile but leave the text field empty, to not generate a new sign. Alternatively you can scroll out over then clouds, select the tool to place signs/lines etc and choose "delete all signs" (or similar).

Spoiler :

You might want to provide us with shorter sessions. While I do not see too many mistakes, I think e.g. the Eridu disaster might have been avoided with more careful play without slowing the attack on Peter much. Generally the early game is much more important than the late game and thus discussing key decision points is more worthwhile in the early game. This offers more learning potential. Such moments would have been: Cyrus beginning to plot, maybe some difficult tech choices and trades, and the build up to the war.

Nonetheless, overall you seem to have played this quite well.

(Should I have gone Police State instead if my plan was an earlyish attack?)

Yes, as this means 25% more units, and thus potentially an earlier attack.

Cyrus DoWed

Unless you planned to attack Peter at this exact time your stack should probably have been in a (border) city, here clearly Eridu to be prepared, especially since you knew Cyrus was plotting but not on whom. Also one or two spears would probably have dealt with him? IMHO they are not too expensive and can be built preemptively.

Also you seem to have neglected to scout the Russian and Persian territory. The former would have been important so that you know what you are attacking and the latter to know where and when he might attack. For this you can send out individual units from your stack, as they have nothing better to do.

MC for CoL and Currency

I do not believe you need MC right now. This only means Mansa will research faster, which is problematic as he probably is your main rival for Lib. What option were available, and did you do more trades?

gave it back (plus CoL) for peace.

Pricey. However I have too little information to judge.

I'm thinking of going Cuirs here, any tips on recovery?

Show us the tech screen! Cuirs seem reasonable, and for recovery cottage the grassland. Check the coast West of Moscow for seafood, a city there might be worthwhile. Same for the copper in the ice. Also stop building units.

How do I maximize great people here, especially since the engineer (from mids) is polluting my pool?

Do not use Uruk for GP, unless you have a use for a GE. Lagash with both crabs (+8=4 specialists) and Kish (+9=4 specialists) with crabs and fish offer enough food for two good spots. Maybe add a few grassland farms there down the road. Petersburg also has enough food for a few specialists (+9= 4 specialists) when farming a grassland to irrigate the rice, You might want caste system to hire all these specialists (switch at the same time as bureau to minimize anarchy).

Building a good wonder and a golden age would be good uses of a GE, so it is possible to still use Uruk. That has the additional disadvantage that you will soon be going into Bureau, and want it work commerce.

If I get a GE perhaps I go for MoM?

Would be ok.

How is my pacing for Emperor?

I do not know, I have not played on Emperor for a long time. Show us how the AI are doing and it will be clear. Looking at the city count I see no problem there, and if they are mid-medieval, as Mansa teching Machinery indicates, you are fine.

Also, should I maybe consider Knights as well, particularly since this is Emperor?

Frankly, I hate medieval wars. If you want to do this you would need siege, as pikes behind castle walls shred knights. Cuirs have two big advantages: they have a higher base strength, and they ignore building defenses. The latter effectively allows you to ignore castles. Cuirs attacking into 100% defences all the time would be really hard.

As a side not on your screenshot, Kish possibly should have had a Granary for a while, to better use the food. WIth Rep and two early happiness resources, you can whip a bit. OTOH it probably has enough food to whip 4->2 whenever unhappiness has decayed, so with PS it would not have been as good, but maybe still worthwhile.

Also the ice mine is a waste of worker-turns. The PH 2E of Kish would have been a better tile, due to one additional , and less worker turns (desert, tundra and ice take longer to improve). If Kish needs a road it should have gone through the PH and 1 SW of that anyway, as that is faster to build and allows better access to Peter. AN even better road would have gone through the grasslands south of all these hills, as you save worker turns. I am not convinced this road is neccessary at all, as with the first border expansion of Kish wou would have had a trade connection anyway.

Micro: Kish should not be working the ice mine, but steal the PH mine from Petersburg.



For intermediate goals before Libbing MT, is the Music artist still available? Did anyone get Philo yet? (bulb?)