Fixed borders mod for Rise of Mankind

[dexy]

Fixed borders mod
for Rise of Mankind​

WARNING: This thread has been deprecated. The latest version of Fixed Borders (3.1) is not available as standalone RoM modmod, since it's been included in very popular Afforess' A.N.D modmod.

Version 1.0.1 (for RoM 2.4)
Version 2.0 (for RoM 2.5x)
Version 3.0b2 (the latest) (for RoM 2.8)

Requires Rise of Mankind, Civ IV BtS 3.19


I've always had problem with culture dependent borders in modern times. So in my mod - they are not changeable by culture, only by military occupations and city trading (in modern times, which means specific civics needed).


Units have new command "claim territory" that you can apply in an enemy territory. You claim it, next turn the plot is inside your borders. In order to recapture it, enemy must place his forces on that plot and do the same ("claim territory").


When capturing cities, you get all the territory that the city 'provides' to its original owner. So when you're at war with someone and capture all his cities, you will get ALL his territory, up to the last plot (there's only one exception to this rule - the tiles that are not 'provided' by cities, but claimed by force can remain in the old civ, but for sure they can't go to other neighboring civ that is neutral in war). In order to keep all this territory you need only the military force. No neighbor of his that is at peace with both sides can benefit from the war. If someone wants that territory – he must declare war and capture it or trade for it (city trading, like in normal game).


During a war, if a tile has more of your tiles surrounding it than the enemy’s, it is claimed automatically, if no enemy units are defending it. This makes the borders less shredded at the end of war.

Additional thing about borders around cities - every tile next to a city ALWAYS belongs to the owner of that city. This is an additional feature that could be good for plain BTS also, but with fixed borders it is a must (when a non-fixed-borders-civ captures a city of a fixed-borders-civ, it can have a lot of problems with that city, which is very soon completely surrounded by enemy tiles).

Before having modern civics, the game acts as before (i.e. the culture defines borders) and once a player has the necessary civics all of his territory becomes ‘fixed’, no one can take it by culture means anymore and his units get the new command to execute when in enemy territory (‘claim territory’). The player still culturally expands his borders over unoccupied territory and over nations that don’t have fixed borders (think of the Roman Empire that enforced its own borders, but influenced the surrounding tribes that had no solid state formed).


The civics that switch between ‘fixed borders’ and cultural borders are defined in XML as of this version (this however has a drawback - savegames from plain RoM are not compatible with this mod ). By default, the following civics enforce fixed borders (you can change this in CIV4CivicInfos.xml):

CIVICOPTION_GOVERNMENT
- CIVIC_REPUBLIC
- CIVIC_FEDERAL
- CIVIC_DEMOCRACY
- CIVIC_COMMUNIST
- CIVIC_FASCIST

CIVICOPTION_POWER
- CIVIC_VASSALAGE
- CIVIC_PARLIAMENT
- CIVIC_PRESIDENT

CIVICOPTION_SOCIETY
- CIVIC_NATIONALIST

CIVICOPTION_ECONOMY
- CIVIC_PLANNED
- CIVIC_CORPORATIST

CIVICOPTION_RELIGION
- CIVIC_STATE_CHURCH

In order to have fixed borders, a player must have AT LEAST ONE of these civics options selected.


AI has been thought to use ‘claim territory’ in favor of pillage and to prefer to claim the tiles close to its cities (plus to give priority to resource rich tiles).



Changes from version 3.0b1:
- AI switches to Fixed Borders civics as soon as it can (priority among civics kept, just added one civic with fixed borders to be a must)

Changes from version 2.0:
- converted to RoM 2.8
- fixed borders civics defined in XML
- tiles adjacent to a city always belong to the owner of the city
- GUI: on leaderhead/civ mouse hover, info whether the player has fixed borders displayed

Credits:

Of course zappara for his brilliant mod Rise of Mankind (which includes many other mods and credits; see Rise of Mankind thread)

Download ver 1.0.1

Download ver 2.0

Download ver 3.0

 

[ichbinsehselber]

This sounds like an improvement over an already excellent mod! It seems to fix one of the BTS weaknesses. I am looking forward to trying this! Does it also work with ROM 2.5?

 

[dexy]

Does it also work with ROM 2.5?

No. I never switched to RoM 2.5 myself, I liked the 2.4's civics much better, so I played and modded that.

But hey, give me one weekend and it will work

 

[ichbinsehselber]

playing ROM 2.4 immortal huge marathon with fixed borders mod.
My enemies apparently have achieve that status in the medieval. Their tiles have got very high culture values. So I am no longer able to gain tiles with culture. I haven' achieved that state yet.
Is it now impossible culturally conquer cities?
What happens if you switch back to other civics. Do the culture values swap back to their normal values for each tile?

 

[dexy]

playing ROM 2.4 immortal huge marathon with fixed borders mod. My enemies apparently have achieve that status in the medieval. Their tiles have got very high culture values. So I am no longer able to gain tiles with culture.

That's right. I use culture to fix the borders. So you'll in fact see that the owner of a tile always has 99% or 100% culture in that tile. You can't take it by culture expansion anymore, only by using military forces ("claim territory" order).

Is it now impossible culturally conquer cities?

It's not impossible, because culture in cities still works the same. But I suggest turning that option off (when starting the game) because RoM itself has much better solution for that - city revolts (which are affected by culture, angryness, health, military presence in the city and much more), so simple city cultural flipping is made obsolete in my opinion.

What happens if you switch back to other civics. Do the culture values swap back to their normal values for each tile?

Yes. In fact, when switching to "non fixed borders" civics, you'll loose all the territory that doesn't belong to you "culturally" (i.e. you claimed it with "claim territory"). This represents (in real life) the period of dissolving of an empire, when you don't have enough strength to rule your own lands.

 

[Darkology]

No. I never switched to RoM 2.5 myself, I liked the 2.4's civics much better, so I played and modded that.

But hey, give me one weekend and it will work

can't wait!

 

[ichbinsehselber]

It's not impossible, because culture in cities still works the same. But I suggest turning that option off (when starting the game) because RoM itself has much better solution for that - city revolts (which are affected by culture, angryness, health, military presence in the city and much more), so simple city cultural flipping is made obsolete in my opinion.

This is interesting! Never thought of it that way. As I like to play builder-style I was planning to take over some cities culturally. The fixing of the borders already in medieval age surprised me and now forces me to change my strat, as all of my neighbors have fixed borders.
Already curious if the revolutions can work out in my favour then...

 

[ichbinsehselber]

Having played this now a bit, I found the following issues in my game. There are 2 big AI countries Ethiopia and Egypt, which are at war with each other.
1.) Egypt sent forces deep into Ethiopia territory and claimed land there, but each turn the land is lost again because of the rule that surrounded lands go back to the owner of the more tiles. This issue seems to be minor and could possibly be fixed by making the AI only claim territory if it owns so much land nearby.
2.) There are stretches of "abandoned land". Egypt owns land stretches near Ethiopian cities even though there is no Egyptian city anywhere near. This seems to have been cause by a revolution in an Egyptian city while Ethiopia did not have fixed borders. Egypt just kept the tiles. Perhaps this can be fixed by implementing a random chance of any owned tile not near any own city to lose its fixed status.
3.) Perhaps the take ownership action should be limited to allow taking ownership only near own cities or near own other tiles. This would override the suggestion in 1.
4.) If one civ with fixed borders conquers a city of another one without fixed borders and the original owner conquers the city back, it does not get back its tiles.
My overall impression is that the fixed borders mod is a very good idea and concept, that can be a great playing experience, if these issues could be addressed. These comments are just my impressions from less than 1 full game. Hopefully others can tell there impressions as well.

 

[dexy]

Having played this now a bit, I found the following issues in my game. There are 2 big AI countries Ethiopia and Egypt, which are at war with each other...

Could you post a save game or at least some screenshots? It will be much easier for me to understand the problem (and to fix it).

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Moderator Action: Moved to the RoM forum.

 

[konradcabral]

Interesting addon, I'll try it as soon as it's available to 2.5!

What about the Influence Driven War concepts? Are they gone?

 

[dexy]

What about the Influence Driven War concepts? Are they gone?

Yes, if the loser unit's owner has 'fixed borders'. There's no use of culture transfer if borders are fixed. But until a fixed borders civics is selected IDW works the same as before.

Now I'm thinking (in new version) to keep the Active city resistance part of IDW, even after fixed borders are reached, but I'm not sure yet. Culture transfer for field combat will be off for sure (after fixed borders reached).

 

[ichbinsehselber]

Here are some screenshots:
rom2.4_fixed_750ad.JPG shows the abandoned lands. The green city is in revolt state but the situation with the surrounding land stays the same after the revolt state is over.

rom2.4_fixed_750ad_2.JPG shows how the AI claims land and loses it when it moves to the next tile

rom2.4_fixed_750ad_3.JPG shows a "possibly new issue": The culture value of the city tile has been set to a very high value. See bottom left of the screenshot. The mouse was over the violett city tile.

rom2.4_fixed_760ad.JPG shows that after peace has been negotiated, the unit is keeping a resource far away from its cities. Is this intended?

 

[dexy]

1.

Egypt sent forces deep into Ethiopia territory and claimed land there, but each turn the land is lost again because of the rule that surrounded lands go back to the owner of the more tiles. This issue seems to be minor and could possibly be fixed by making the AI only claim territory if it owns so much land nearby.

Hmm, yes, I noticed this thing myself. The problem is that I taught AI to use the pillage type of units to claim land, and those units are usually fast ones, they pillage and move on. I will try to switch to defender units, they should claim the land and stay there to defend it. I already made a priority for AI to claim tiles close to its existing borders, but apparently it needs to be stricter. Tiles far inside enemy territory should be claimed only if they hold a valuable resource, but then some defenders should stay there definitely.

2.

There are stretches of "abandoned land". Egypt owns land stretches near Ethiopian cities even though there is no Egyptian city anywhere near. This seems to have been cause by a revolution in an Egyptian city while Ethiopia did not have fixed borders. Egypt just kept the tiles.

This seems OK to me as it is. Think of a rebels (in real life) who took only one city but didn't organize themselves enough to take the surrounding lands. The laws of big and organized Egypt are enforced in that territory until the rebels send armies to conquer it.

3.

Perhaps this can be fixed by implementing a random chance of any owned tile not near any own city to lose its fixed status.

No, the idea of fixed borders is that you never lose a tile, except by military occupation or trade. Like UK owns lands in Cyprus or Falkland Islands, without any real cities there, but with strong forces to defend it.

4.

Perhaps the take ownership action should be limited to allow taking ownership only near own cities or near own other tiles. This would override the suggestion in 1.

Again, it is OK to take some tiles far away from home, but apparently AI does this too much. I'll try to restrain it only to valuable resources, but not to completely ban it.

5.

If one civ with fixed borders conquers a city of another one without fixed borders and the original owner conquers the city back, it does not get back its tiles.

Yes, well....this seems rather fair to me (in the 'fixed borders mod' way of thinking ). Culture is strong and affects people and countries, but only until organized military forces and solid states come into play. So if you lost some territory to a more organized country, it will be much harder to take it back (until you organize yourself).


6.

rom2.4_fixed_750ad_3.JPG shows a "possibly new issue": The culture value of the city tile has been set to a very high value. See bottom left of the screenshot. The mouse was over the violett city tile.

This seems to be an obvious bug. I'll try to investigate more and fix it for the next version.

7.

rom2.4_fixed_760ad.JPG shows that after peace has been negotiated, the unit is keeping a resource far away from its cities. Is this intended?

Yes, this is exactly why I allowed claiming of territory deep inside enemy lands - you brake in and take what you need, if you're strong enough. After that you must defend it or lose it. This is how I wanted AI to behave all the time (regarding points 1 and 4)

 

[wrestler235]

Any idea as to when it'll be updated to 2.5? I'd love to play it as I've suggested ideas like this before, but never had the coding ability to do it myself.

 

[jm_dracolich]

Wow, this mod looks amazing.
I can't wait to implement it when it's updated to 2.5. It'll make the modern era more realistic with actual countries instead of just areas of culture, which doesn't dictate boundaries anymore.

 

[dexy]

Any idea as to when it'll be updated to 2.5?

This weekend, if I fix the problems with the overheating of my new graphic card .

In the meantime - post what civics you'd like to trigger the fixed borders (in 2.5 it's a completely new system).

 

[ichbinsehselber]

Thank you very much for addressing each point in detail!

2.
This seems OK to me as it is. Think of a rebels (in real life) who took only one city but didn't organize themselves enough to take the surrounding lands. The laws of big and organized Egypt are enforced in that territory until the rebels send armies to conquer it.

Hm, but this has a disadvantage. In this case I as the player would have to declare war to 3 different nations just to take over one city with the land that belongs to it.
Originally I understood that the main purpose of the fixed borders mod is to keep cities and their tiles together.

Another interesting case is if the vassal is the owner of the city and superior country owns the lands around it. Perhaps the superior would like to "donate" the land to its vassal, or at least "let them work the tiles" so they do not starve.

 

[dexy]

Originally I understood that the main purpose of the fixed borders mod is to keep cities and their tiles together.

Well, the main purpose of fixed borders mod is actually the opposite - allow countries to own lands independently of cities. This is an advantage for advanced nations, but of course - disadvantage for poor ones.

In this case I as the player would have to declare war to 3 different nations just to take over one city with the land that belongs to it.

Same as above - land doesn't belong to a city if the land's owner is not the same as the city's owner. If you wanted to conquer Andorra (tiny city in Europe) and the surrounding lands - you'd have to declare war to Spain and France as well (or to be satisfied with the small city only).

Maybe a small mod can be made (independently of this mod) - to make the surrounding city tiles (only in the small 3x3 square) always belong to the same nation as the city. You can't build a city within 2 tiles of another one, so it could work.

Another interesting case is if the vassal is the owner of the city and superior country owns the lands around it. Perhaps the superior would like to "donate" the land to its vassal, or at least "let them work the tiles" so they do not starve.

Donating (or in general - trading) land in any way other than city trading is really impossible for AI. It would be perfect if you could negotiate a borderline before signing a peace deal or trade some tiles for money, but it's very hard to implement. Maybe in Civ 5.....

 

[ichbinsehselber]

I do not share your opinion but as it is your mod and your work I accept your conclusion.

Sorry, I found another issue:
Make a privateer, go to a country, with which you are at peace and do not have open borders agreement. Claim land there.
Stay there and plunder as long as you like.
They cannot attack your privateer, because they would have to declare war on you.
Of course they have no idea to who the privateer belongs in that foreign sea near their coastline that just claimed the sea for country X. ;-)

Ending the joke back to serious: Hidden Nationality units should probably not be able to claim land.