[NFP] Fixing secret societies

[Margaret I of Denmark]

There has been a lot of talk about how cultist AI is broken and how the mode injects too much power. has anyone found any mods to "fix" this? I find it strange if this problem is as bad as the forum makes it out to be yet no modders fixed it. does it require DLL access? is the problem overexagerated? Have I just not looked hard enough?

In case any modders are looking for a new project I would suggest:

• Reducing tourism from the relics at the very least
• The cultist AI I dont know so maybe the unit need to be majorly revamped?
• Don't know what can be done about vampires? Maybe give them some sort of drawback or less strength?
• Order is very random and on the low end of the power spectrum. I guess other needs to be brought down to this level?
• Owls just seems very strong, even just looking at their extra slots. You cant give them half a slot, so im pretty much out of ideas on that one

I am neither a game designer or modder, so what specific changes do the fine people of CivFanatics suggest? I added a poll about some general direction the mode could be taken to make it more like a staple in your load order.

 

[Deadly Dog]

I'm happy with they way they're currently set up in terms of giving me fun choices in my games, but I do want to see AI handle the mode better. Voidsingers give the AI a strong defensive culture by accident but otherwise soak up a lot of faith. AI still seems to use the first promotion on Amani which sure is maybe smart but tiresome when it's always their choice.

Easy fix might be to predispose most AI to pick Owls or Hermetic Society. They'll get most benefits just by being the AI and won't undermine themselves spamming cultists or throwing Vampires at city walls.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I voted other as I use them every game, they could do with a bit of a rebalance though.

 

[Jimdigriz]

Never gonna use this mode. It just seems a bit silly to me. Glad others like it though.

 

[ehecatzin]

Most of the modes are unbalanced anyway, they need to take a good hard look at the yield porn in game for April's patch.

I really can't stand the fantasy elements put together, I mean It's fine if others like it but when you go: "I've got to use my vampires and Beowulf to assault a civ before their voidsinger cultist get out of control".....It sound more warhammer than it does civ to me, instant immersion break.

However, the idea is nice and the mechanics could be deepened, like having each society give out missions, and special diplomatic interactions to civs that also have them, if anything I'd like to see another take on this but deepened and with historical flavour, it would be a really nice mechanic for idiologies for example.

 

[kaspergm]

I'm not quite sure what to think about this game mode. I think basically for me it just feels unnecessary: I don't like the fantasy aspects, I don't like the powercreep, and it doesn't really add much beyond just giving you a bunch of free stuff. The idea of secret societies could have some merit based on some post-renaissance era sort of grouping of leaders which would then influence diplomacy a lot (well, that's basically just Civ5 Ideologies, so ...). But what we have is basically the choice between gazillions of faith (nice, but very shallow), gazillions of policy slots and trade routes (great, but again very shallow), weird vampire units and the vampire castle improvement (which is probably the most fun this mode has to offer), or ... well, I'm not even sure what positive thing there is to say about Hermetic Order.

But if I should use this more, it would require more balance, less power ... and realistically a complete rework and whole-game integration, which is not going to happen.

 

[GinandTonic]

They're fine as is. The AI however...

 

[Socrates99]

It's fun in the Bells and whistles kind of way. The op points at 3/4 of the societies as being very strong in their own way. I guess that'd mean giving a boost to Hermetic Order might be all that's necessary to "balance" it. They can get good in the late game but that's often irrelevant and the others are pretty potent right off the bat.

I know there are a lot of complaints about the mode thing but it's not all that different from scenarios since it's just additional content you can opt out of. From the buzz in forums and social media I'd say more players are using the modes than any of scenarios. In that respect it seems like a good choice of Firaxis' part.

Are they disruptive to the base play? Yeah, you betcha. I think that's the idea. They need you be powerful enough to shake things up in a way that's more than just "ho hum" to even be worth switching on and off.

 

[Askia Muhammad]

There has been a lot of talk about how cultist AI is broken and how the mode injects too much power. has anyone found any mods to "fix" this? I find it strange if this problem is as bad as the forum makes it out to be yet no modders fixed it. does it require DLL access? is the problem overexagerated? Have I just not looked hard enough?.

The AI being completely unable to use it is a massive reason I literally never use the mode. Even if the AI was programmed to use it more competently I still probably wouldn't use it. When we first heard of SS (before it was officially announced and we knew of it by name only) my mind was so excited for the possibilities and when it turned out to just be empire wide governors I was terribly burnt with how boring the concept is.

I'm glad the modes are optional as the mode is basically just yield bloat to me (and currently cheap and easy no effort deity wins against the AI) that further ruins the pace and balance of the game.

To my mind all of the modes should have been to deepen or alter existing systems or gameplay (see Dramatic Ages, Barbarian Clans, Monopoly mode) rather than just add on low effort yield inflation. I think Apoc mode could be great too but I don't like how there is a meteor/asteroid every single turn. It would have been better if it just created the chance for there to be massive storms that could literally delete cities but that they were rare but increase in frequency as climate change gets worse.

 

[Vargas1]

I like the mode but my main issue is still that Voidsingers is almost always the right choice unless you just want to mix it up with one of the others. +4 faith per city for a small investment is just way too powerful, especially with monumentality, faith-buying troops, and late-game cultural uses. And that's not even getting into how easy it is to stack relics later in the game.

 

[Finvola]

I think Monopolies need a rebalance, but I'd mostly like to see the AI handle them better, especially voidslingers. And them actually using their heroes the way they are intended.

 

[UWHabs]

I voted for less power, less fantasy, and better AI (cultists).

Less power and less fantasy are probably the 2 biggest reasons it's not an always-on for me. As much fun as it is at time, it still gets a little jarring when you have a Zulu Vampire leading the charge into battle... The others I can kind of passibly accept, I can kind of gloss over the alchemists shop or whatever else, and just treat them like bonuses.

On the power side, I think the biggest flaw is that whatever you choose simply just ends up being a better bonus than any civ's abilities. I think you could chop the bonuses in half and it would still be OP, but less so. Like, say that Voidsingers had the following bonuses:
Old God Obelisk: +2 faith, can store 1 relic
Faith turned to Gold/Culture/Science at 10% rate
And then maybe simply make cultists more expensive - they unlock in the industrial era, so 100 faith is a tiny base rate. If they started at 500-600 faith, that would be era-appropriate.

Give them those bonuses and I still think they're very strong, but not so much that Georgia/Voidsingers > no SS/any civ. You could do a similar thing with Owls - they have like 7 bonuses through the eras, you could easily tone down a bunch of them and then they simply turn into a fun way to rebalance how you play rather than having abilities that are 3X better than Kublai.

 

[Pfeffersack]

I'm not sure if balance between the societies is still greatly off; at least the gap has dimished with the HO buff.

It still "adds power" to the game, but with the three free governor titles from meeting the other secret socities removed even that has been reduced. While I don't think such power infusions are needed, it has now reached an acceptable level for me.

So the biggest remaining offender for me is the AI's ignorance to make use of Cultists (both because it weakens them and because it creates an interface nightmare, when you try to make your way through a carpet of cultists, which belong to a civ you are not at war with)

 

[Stringer1313]

Am I the only one that finds vampires ridiculously overpowered (especially if you turn Heroes and Legends off)? They provide a fun challenge when AI has them, but if a player uses them, then it's roflstomp in a non-fun way. At a minimum, vampires should lose X combat power every time they are killed so they have to build back up.

My problem is that two of the societies are really passive and boring, especially Minerva.

 

[Socrates99]

Am I the only one that finds vampires ridiculously overpowered (especially if you turn Heroes and Legends off)? They provide a fun challenge when AI has them, but if a player uses them, then it's roflstomp in a non-fun way. At a minimum, vampires should lose X combat power every time they are killed so they have to build back up.

My problem is that two of the societies are really passive and boring, especially Minerva.

I've only used them once and found them to be pretty "meh". I admit it was on a huge map so two units have less impact when they're a tiny part of your army.

 

[Nerevatar]

There has been a lot of talk about how cultist AI is broken and how the mode injects too much power. has anyone found any mods to "fix" this? I find it strange if this problem is as bad as the forum makes it out to be yet no modders fixed it. does it require DLL access? is the problem overexagerated? Have I just not looked hard enough?

In case any modders are looking for a new project I would suggest:

• Reducing tourism from the relics at the very least
• The cultist AI I dont know so maybe the unit need to be majorly revamped?
• Don't know what can be done about vampires? Maybe give them some sort of drawback or less strength?
• Order is very random and on the low end of the power spectrum. I guess other needs to be brought down to this level?
• Owls just seems very strong, even just looking at their extra slots. You cant give them half a slot, so im pretty much out of ideas on that one

I am neither a game designer or modder, so what specific changes do the fine people of CivFanatics suggest? I added a poll about some general direction the mode could be taken to make it more like a staple in your load order.

I have actually been working on something like this for a while now, and I just released it: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2406253078. I guess you searched before I posted it

It might not be a 100% match, but given what is doable from a modding perspective I think you will like it. Copy-pasta from the mod page:
Rebalances the Secret Society mode, to make it viable as an "always-on" mode. The goal is to bring the power of each society closer, to reduce power creep, and to enhance the unique flavor of each society, making them more distinct. This is done by adding one or more malus to each society and some further nerfs to some effects. Furthermore, Voidsingers received some major changes, since the AI is incapable of using Cultists.

 

[Baigan]

Were Vampires always buffed by Great Generals? I remember them having fewer ways to increase movement when the game mode released. Regardless, getting a high damage Vampire requires investment in planning out your combats. It can pay off, but it takes time. Sanguine Pact doesn't seem too bad when compared to the large power spikes that Voidsingers immediately enjoy in their first two promotions.

I'm glad that they changed the societies so that they don't all give titles at first meet, but completely losing those three titles makes it difficult to justify investing in either Hermetic Order or Owls. Getting Pingala and Magnus set up with a third governor to help with loyalty on the border is more valuable to me than the first promotions for those societies. I had a game recently where I wanted to join the Hermetic Order but didn't end up doing so until the Industrial era. Maybe they could've instead staggered the titles for meeting societies to line up with when the society promotions unlock. So you get the 1st title in the Ancient era, the 2nd in the Medieval, etc.

I understand others' distaste for it, but I personally enjoy the fantasy atmosphere of the game mode. It makes for more interesting stories.

 

[cain3456]

Are Hermetics still weak? Voidsingers got nerfed so that they can't convert a city with positive loyalty. That leaves only two good societies, Vamps & Owls.

 

[Socrates99]

The big faith bump at the beginning and tourism later is where voidsingers' real power is.

 

[greenOak]

Just nerf voidsingers. I find they are the best pick in almost every instance - even civs/strategies that don't have great synergy with them do best taking voidsingers. Have the old god obelisk give 2 faith instead of 4, and get rid of the great work slot - or at least restrict it to relics. Reduce chorus' bonus from 20% to 10%.