Flag Burning!

jtb1127

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I'm mostly bringing up the topic after looking at the thread titled, "The Symbols of the State" and having read about occupy protesters doing it.

OAKLAND, Calif. - Many in the crowd outside Oakland City Hall shouted "Burn it! Burn it!" as masked protesters readied to set fire to an American flag. That's when a woman emerged from the scrum, screaming for them to stop, that it would hurt the cause. Moments later, the flames began, and suddenly a movement that seemingly vanished weeks ago was back in the spotlight, this time for an act of protest that has long divided the nation and now the movement itself. The images of the flag-burning went viral in the hours after Saturday's demonstrations on Oakland's streets, with Occupy supporters denouncing the act as unpatriotic and a black mark on the movement. Others called it justified. The flag-burning, however, raised questions about whether the act will tarnish a movement of largely peaceful protests and alienate people who agree with its message against corporate excess and economic inequality. "I'm quite confident that the general view is that violence of this sort - whether it's symbolic or otherwise - is contrary to the spirit of the movement and should be renounced," Columbia University sociologist Todd Gitlin said. Gitlin, who is writing a book about the movement, noted that flags have had a prominent place at the Occupy Wall Street encampments that sprang up last fall. They are typically pinned to tents or waving from wooden flagpoles. "I was thinking how they have come to embrace the American flag as a hallmark of this movement; it's very common to see American flags honored and elevated at these encampments," he said. Flag-burning has been a powerful symbol since the days of the anti-Vietnam War movement. Congress at the time passed a law to protect the flag in 1968, and most states followed suit. In 1989, the U.S. Supreme Court decided such laws were unconstitutional restrictions on free speech. The court's decision set off a move in Congress to pass a constitutional amendment to prohibit desecration of the flag. An attempt in 2006 failed by only one vote in the Senate. In Oakland, social activism and civic unrest have long marked the rough-edged city across the bay from San Francisco. Beset by poverty, crime and a decades-long tense relationship between the police and residents, its streets have seen many clashes, including anti-draft protests in the 1960s that spilled into town from neighboring Berkeley. At Occupy Oakland, flag-burning is nothing new. A well-known Bay Area activist burned three during protests that temporarily shut down the Port of Oakland in November. Troy Johnson, an Occupy Oakland member, said he arrived just in time Saturday to watch his friend, whom he would not name in order to protect his identity, emerge from City Hall with an American flag in tow. "He asked the crowd, 'What do you want us to do with the flag?'" Johnson recalled. "They said, 'Burn it! Burn it! Burn it!'" As many egged on the bandanna-masked men, lighters were passed around. A photographer on assignment for The Associated Press said a woman rose from among the crowd to urge against the flag-burning. She then threw the flag to the ground and tried to put out the fire, shouting at them that it would only hurt their cause. The fire-starter is not an anarchist, but a typical member of Occupy Oakland who feels the system has failed them, said Johnson, who pulled out his cellphone to show his recording of the flag-burning. "I would describe him as someone who loves his country, but also disappointed in the system that's running this country," said Johnson, who goes by the nickname "Uncle Boom" and was a sergeant in the U.S. Army. Johnson said he wouldn't stop the flag-burning because the country is based on freedom of speech and expression. "To the veterans who fought for this country, I wholeheartedly apologize," he said. "Because when they took the oath to join the military, they fought for the flag. But they also fought for the right to express ourselves." Another Occupy member, Sean Palmer, who served in the Marines, said he opposed flag-burning. "I think they should've hung it upside down, because that's the international call for distress and that's what we are, in distress," Palmer said. Saturday's protest culminated in rock- and bottle-throwing and volleys of tear gas from the police, as well as the City Hall break-in that left glass cases smashed, graffiti spray-painted on the walls and, finally, the flag-burning. Police said more than 400 people were arrested; at least three officers and one protester were injured. Police said Monday that they were still trying to determine how many of those arrested were from Oakland. In the past, the majority of those arrested in Occupy sweeps were not Oakland residents and this has rankled city officials. Mayor Jean Quan has called on the loosely organized movement to "stop using Oakland as its playground." Officials said vandalism and activities related to Occupy Oakland have cost the financially strapped city $5 million since October. Oakland Councilwoman Libby Schaaf said she was disgusted not to see the American and California flags atop the grand staircase inside City Hall on Monday. The destruction to her workplace couldn't have come at a worse time as the city is grappling with closing a $28 million budget deficit. "To do this to us in a week were we have to lay off so many city workers is so unconscionable," Schaaf said. Protester Julion Lewis-Tatman said he led the crowd in the plaza outside City Hall, but did not take part in the flag-burning. "I love this country to death, but burning the flag means nothing to me," he said. "We're burning down the old system and we're starting a new country."
Link

Several things:
-Would you support a flag burning amendment such as the one that was shot down in 2006 or do you support laws in your own country which prohibit the burning of the national flag?
-Do you think flag burning is an appropriate tool to use in protests and what consequences does it result in?
-Is flag burning unpatriotic?

My opinion:
Laws and prohibitions banning flag burning are unconstitutional (in the US) and those that exist are unjust. Flag burning is not inherently unpatriotic and it is also an effective means of demonstration.
 
Burning a flag is pretty clearly unpatriotic to me, and certainly something that should be avoided in protests that are actually trying to grow community support. OWS folks who think it will harm their movement are exactly right.

I do not support making it illegal though, although I will think less of somebody who burns a flag (unless, of course, they are properly disposing of it).
 
It's a little sad this is even considered an issue.

It's a coloured rag representing a patch of special dirt.
 
I think it hardly hurts the OWS that two individuals decided to burn a flag anymore than it hurt Christianity that the KKK burned thousands of crosses in people's yard without much reaction at all from most whites at the time. Ironically, it seemed that far more were more upset at flag burning on public property to protest the Vietnam War.
 
The difference, of course, is that large chunks of the country already think that OWS resembles hippy rabble, and that even one photograph that reinforces that meme can damage further public perception. Few people actually think of the KKK as a Christian organization.
 
Those who hate the OWS aren't going to change their minds if a handful of people don't burn flags. And how large of a chunk is that? I think it is about the same percentage and constituency as those who think GWB did a good job as president, and that Obama is a Muslim socialist who was born in Kenya.
 
I'd imagine they'd make good kindling for holy books, but I haven't gotten the chance to try yet.
 
It should absolutely be legal. Its a legitimate means of demonstration. There are a lot of people that I respect a lot, but I think they are absolute idiots when it comes to this issue. This is just about as obvious to me as "The Patriot Act shouldn't exist" and "It should have been legal to build the mosque near ground zero." On these three things, (US) conservatives don't/didn't make any sense.

Its generally unpatriotic, though I could theoretically see a time where our country goes so far "Overboard" that burning the flag is your best way of showing utter disgust. But that should be a way of, essentially, refusal to be loyal to the state. As such a person who actually thinks they should burn the flag should not care if its unpatriotic.
 
Would you support a flag burning amendment such as the one that was shot down in 2006 or do you support laws in your own country which prohibit the burning of the national flag?

no

Do you think flag burning is an appropriate tool to use in protests and what consequences does it result in?

no, offending people who sacrificed for our freedom - what little there is left anyway - is needlessly cruel and counterproductive

Is flag burning unpatriotic?

Of course not, its a symbolic gesture about the state of the state - like flipping off a politician or bureaucrat. Wait, does patriotism mean we gotta love the state?

My opinion:
Laws and prohibitions banning flag burning are unconstitutional (in the US) and those that exist are unjust. Flag burning is not inherently unpatriotic and it is also an effective means of demonstration.

eh, dont know how effective it is - just gets people pissed off at the protesters.
 
In point of fact, burning is considered the most honorable way to dispose of a flag.

I think.
 
I'd imagine they'd make good kindling for holy books, but I haven't gotten the chance to try yet.

I like the thought. The Bible, the Koran and the Communist Manifesto wrapped in American, Saudia Arabian, Israeli and Chinese flags. And flags are nothing more than pieces of cloth.
 
It might even have commercial appeal like those Duraflame fake logs. You could even add various chemicals which would cause them to emit flames of the same colors as the respective flags.

Of course, American Bibles and Israeli Torahs would likely be more popular in the Middle East, while Iranian Korans and Chinese Mao little red books would be hot sellers here.
 
Burning a flag is pretty clearly unpatriotic to me, and certainly something that should be avoided in protests that are actually trying to grow community support. OWS folks who think it will harm their movement are exactly right.
Maybe a political discourse in which it is necessary to kowtow to an ideal of Nation is one of the things that the OWS should set itself to challenging? This certainly is not the most tactful way of going about it, but there's a point where pragmatism becomes retreat. The OWS movement has so far managed to avoid dealing with the really very pertinent question of the relationship between class and nationhood, but these sort of events force you to make some sort of choice, and self-consciously "patriotic" condemnations just force the movement back into the discursive terrain of the mainstream that it's spent its whole existence trying to break out of.
 
-Would you support a flag burning amendment such as the one that was shot down in 2006 or do you support laws in your own country which prohibit the burning of the national flag?

I'm not sure what the amendment was, but I fully support someone's right to set whatever he/she wants on fire, unless it's money.. or unless it hurts someone else in some way.

-Do you think flag burning is an appropriate tool to use in protests and what consequences does it result in?

It can be, but it depends on the situation. Eating a flag might work too.

-Is flag burning unpatriotic?

I don't see how!
 
Flag burning absolutely should be allowed, however, it is "tactlessly ambiguous" - flags represent nations, not only their governments, and flag burning can be interpreted as a demonstration of prejudice against people who belong to a nation whose flag is burning. If you burn an American flag, are you demonstrating against American government, or against Americans themselves?

Personally, I think that the motives of people who burn flags of their own country should be interpreted positively by default, but the motives of people who burn flags of countries not their own should be interpreted negatively by default.

However, if I saw someone burning a Russian flag, I would assume that the burner is either

1) a Valeria Novodvorskaya-style liberal or
2) an extreme nationalist who hates the current Russian flag because it's not the "Imperial" black-yellow-white one.

Which is not the most flattering assumption. So I guess flag burning is counter-productive, after all.
 
I think they just should have flown it upside down to show their distress.
 
The irony to all this is that the kind of people most likely to get their balls in a twist are also the ones most likely to own a lot of flag-themed kitsch, which to my mind is infinitely more disrespectful than any form of political desecration. At least by burning the flag you are attributing a certain symbolic weight, you are asserting that it is something worth burning, but I can't say the same for pillows or dinner plates.
 
It should be (and is) legal, but it doesn't give off good vibes for protesters trying to build momentum behind their movement. Burning a flag gives off the idea that your movement is trying to tear down and destroy things, rather than unite and reform things.

Also you get bad connotations with people outside of the country who burn flags out of hatred for the American people, and not for the reform OWS is trying to put forward, i.e. bad.

EDIT: Hey! There's nothing wrong with American flag dinner plates! I have a couple and they've lasted quite a long time compared to the other ceramics I have.
 
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