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Flak / Mobile SAM, SAM battery / Coastal Fortress

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by NobleLeader, Dec 16, 2003.

  1. NobleLeader

    NobleLeader Chieftain

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    Don't know if it's been posted before (since search is disabled) but can someone explain me what the new units Flak and Mobile SAM are use for ??


    And have anyone ever see a SAM Battery or Coastal Fortress working?? I usually build them but never saw them working !!
     
  2. Bleser

    Bleser Prince

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    The FLAK works great. India was bombing the crap outta me, so I built a bunch of FLAK in those cities and after a few turns about 75% of India's bomber force was destroyed. The FLAK is pretty cheap and quick to build, too.

    As far as the coastal fortress, I have yet to see them working either...the first time I built one in C3C, it was DESTROYED on the NEXT TURN by a Frigate (bombarded)! Some use it was!
     
  3. Fanny Brice

    Fanny Brice Prince

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    I concur with Bleser...

    Anti-aircraft units and improvements work well. Coastal Fortress do not work at all and are destroyed easily.
     
  4. Bob1475

    Bob1475 Prince

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    I have played more hours than I would like to admit. At first I did build the Coastal Fortress but never saw it work so I stopped building it. Recently (PTW) I took an AI city and did see the Fortress attack a passing enemy ship. I understand that one of the benefits of having a Fortress is that the AI does not bombard those cities so the advantage is deterrence. In any case I don't build them and don't really know that anyone does.
     
  5. Mr. Do

    Mr. Do Emperor

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    No, it doesn't deter them from bombarding the city... and the Coastal Fortress will often be the first casualty, making it a total waste.
     
  6. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    Coastal Fortress does work. The problem is that it can only shoot at units passing from one tile in its range to another (à la ZOC attacks), which even the AI is bright enough to avoid.
     
  7. thestonesfan

    thestonesfan A Client of Ron Kuby

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    The AI also generally avoids any cities with air defense, so that may be why you don't see them in action. Which is a shame, because the flak guns are cool as hell.
     
  8. pawpaw

    pawpaw Now Farve-Proof

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    i've seen coastal fortresses work several times in the napoleanic senario, i built one on denmark where all ships pass through a straits--it bombs them almost everytime through
     
  9. Bleser

    Bleser Prince

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    Even with five to ten flak guns in my cities, the AI always bombed them, losing large numbers of planes everytime. This is only true in C3C, however; before they would never bomb my cities, only the terrain.
     
  10. somateria

    somateria Chieftain

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    That's great! The coastal fortress attacks ships that are passing by, but not ships that are attacking its own city. :aargh: :wallbash: :crazyeye:

    I think the commander of the coastal fortess brigade will not be promoted in my army: "There's the enemy fleet - give'em hell soldiers! Wait! They're coming this way! Hide!"
    :hmm:
     
  11. Revolutionary

    Revolutionary Anarchy!

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    :rotfl: actually I think it being destroyed first gives it perpose, by making sure its destroyed and not say you Factory
     
  12. Jaybe

    Jaybe civus fanaticus Supporter

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    Someone ought to increase the bombardment defense of coastal forts (to 16 or 24), to see if that improves their usefulness.
     
  13. Jachyra

    Jachyra Chieftain

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    and/or add a 2 tile radius around the city instead of 1 like we have now (ZOC). That might make them useful...
     
  14. somateria

    somateria Chieftain

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    The 2 tile radius mod sounds like a good idea - then the fortess would actually attack ships attacking the city.

    Does anyone know a simple way of doing this? Looking in the editor, I see it is flagged as naval bombard of 8, but I don't see how to edit the range. Perhaps, it would work to make a "coastal fortress unit" with a bombard of 8, range of 2, zone of control, and movement of 0?

    That's a good thought - I thought their purpose was to annoy me, but now I see their true value. ;)
     
  15. Jaybe

    Jaybe civus fanaticus Supporter

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    (The advantage to my solution is that you can do it yourself in the editor).

    Yes, coastal forts should fire on any enemy as soon as they come adjacent, and they should always get to fire first (similar to defensive bombard now in place for the archer line).
     
  16. Jazz_Newton

    Jazz_Newton Warlord

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    *agrees with everything that's been said about Coastal Fortresses*
     
  17. playshogi

    playshogi Emperor

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    It's not a total waste if the first thing you lose to bombardment is a coastal fortress. Without the CF, you might've lost a bank or a cathedral, instead. Usually, a sub in the vicinity keeps the AI away, too. This is not to say, that the CF couldn't be improved, maybe even building coastal fortifications outside the city.
     
  18. somateria

    somateria Chieftain

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    Yeah, the zone of control behavior stays the same even of you make a unit with a bombard range of 2 . . . , so adding a 2 tile zone of control would mean modding the game code. :(

    I've also noticed that once a coastal fortress is destroyed, I've never been able to build another. So, even the benefit of sacrificing a fortress to protect another improvement is a "one shot deal".

    I cranked the naval bombard defense value for coastal fortress up to 24 in the editor, and then tested them vs. frigates (bombard of 3). The forts did seem to survive more attacks and did protect units and city improvements while they lasted . . . but, they still don't last very long. If the probability of the bombard "succeding" is bombard/{bombard+defense} (correct me if I'm wrong on the mechanics) or 11% in this case, then expected number of attacks needed to win is about 6. So, if the AI has a big stack of frigates (don't they always?), then the CF will not last long.

    With the current defense of 8, only an average of just over 2 attacks is needed.

    Even with a defense of 75, only 18 attacks are needed on average.

    So, a very high bombard defense would be needed to make the CF protect against persistent attack. Eight is a joke . . .
     
  19. Alexei

    Alexei Chieftain

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    The SAM is excellent! I remember a game where I had taken a small town on an island. I put a army inside and the AI began to bomb it with around 20 bombers per turn, but its land troops were not enough to attack. The first turn, I bought barracks, the second turn I bought city walls. Then I bought SAM, although I hadn't ever see it working. The next AI turn, 50% of its bombers where down because of the SAM :) !!! Then they somehow decided not to bomb me any more :) and focused on other squares (e.g. roads) ! So that's a great improvement.
     
  20. Flak

    Flak vBülletin Förum

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    Hey, a post about me!
     

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