Flank Attack

[Merkinball]

Can someone explain this concept to me? How in the HELL are cavalry killing my cannons, more than one at a time without directly facing them?

Let me get this straight... A group of cavalry can roll up on my stack, beat my infantry into nothing, kill my artillery units in the process, and retreat at unbelievably high odds back into a nearbye city?

I gotta be honest. I think I'm through playing the expansion.

I roll into Cyrus' territory with 15 cannon's, and 12 infantry, to take one weakly defended city. In the span of two turns, with 8 cavalry, and 3 cannons, weakened by my airships, Cyrus has managed to reduce that invasion force to 4, barely breathing infantry, and four of his cavalry are alive still. Explain that to me? Somehow...justify that to me.

This is a crock. With the advent of uncounterable air power that zaps 15% of a unit, so early in the game, it is essentially impossible to make any sort of push into enemy territory on inland cities. Couple that with the fact that an already overpowered cavalry unit can KILL artillery units, more than one at a time, will going after another unit...that is bull__it.

WTH is the point anymore.

 

[greggbert]

Well sounds to me like you just need to add a few pikemen or spearmen into your stack. A stack full of seige with no pikemen escorts is just bad gameplay.

 

[Merkinball]

Pikeman? I'm dealing with Cavalry hear. Strength fifteen. I don't think a pikeman, of strength six, even with the 100% bonus, will be doing much. I had an overwhelming number of INFANTRY to deal with them.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Well sounds to me like you just need to add a few pikemen or spearmen into your stack. A stack full of seige with no pikemen escorts is just bad gameplay.

Infantry are a big upgrade over pikes so he has a good escort force for the cannons. I assume the major issue is the airship bombardment reducing the infantry to such an extent that cavalry are favorites against them. Cavalry will kill pikes in the open field even without bombardment.

What is the collateral damage limit for a stack of airships? A 30% reduction in the infantry's strength would make the cavalry a favorite in the open field. A 50% reduction by airship and cannon would allow the cavalry to destroy your stack. Airships lack a counter and beelining to physics for a military advantage just seems odd. If you had airships softening cities before the cannons, can you roll over the enemy until they get their own airships?

 

[Rusty Edge]

I understand you are upset.

I'm not sure I exactly understand your story. For example , who had the airships. Or how technologically advanced each side was.


I may understand your issue. In previous versions of Civ IV , tactics favored unhistorical large stacks of siege weapons that could not only reduce a city's defenses, but kill defenders and capture cities with little support.

There was a cry for a correction. IRL the counter was mounted units, who could outflank the defensive formations of foot soldiers and close the distance faster than the siege weapons could destroy the mounted units. The siege crews and weapons or munitions and the draft animals that moved themwere practically defenseless once the mounted units closed with them. The new sytem is the latest attempt at
correcting the imbalance.


Now invading armies require a more balanced mix.

 

[Merkinball]

Airships can only damage one unit at a time. For a 30% reduction. Cyrus had just five of these units. Aside from Naval units, I had just as many units in this stack as Cyrus had total units. Therefore, I thought my numbers were pretty good. Cyrus' airship would hit 5 of my infantry for 18% damage. Even with 18% damage, my infantry still have a leg up on the enemy. Very well. Take into consideration the cannon's. The cannons would give some damage to the fighting units, and deal some collateral damage to the infantry. When it all boils down, and promotions are considered, it would seem to me that each battle with the cavalry should have been about even. In fact, I should have had some advantage because I had loosened his main battle stack up with 8 airship hits. The 8 hits over 6 units should have done considerably more damage to his 5 over my 27.

It makes no sense. My cannons are GONE! They don't exist anymore. They didn't face a direct fight. Look at the screen shot. One cavalry killed one infantry, destroyed two cannons, and damaged another two cannons.

If that isn't the most ridiculous, over powered aspect in any game, I don't know what is.

 

[Merkinball]

I'm not sure I exactly understand your story. For example , who had the airships. Or how technologically advanced each side was. - Rusty

Cyrus had 5 airships. I had 8.

I may understand your issue. In previous versions of Civ IV , tactics favored unhistorical large stacks of siege weapons that could not only reduce a city's defenses, but kill defenders and capture cities with little support. - Rusty

I know, I was only going to use them to take the next city. I know they don't kill anymore. I know they've been nerfed. I still needed them to reduce the defenses of inland cities, and I wanted the extra bodies to ensure I could crush Persepolis in one solid blow.

There was a cry for a correction. IRL the counter was mounted units, who could outflank the defensive formations of foot soldiers and close the distance faster than the siege weapons could destroy the mounted units. The siege crews and weapons or munitions and the draft animals that moved themwere practically defenseless once the mounted units closed with them. The new sytem is the latest attempt at
correcting the imbalance.

Now invading armies require a more balanced mix. - Rusty

So in the name of nerfing artillery, we have no decided to give more power to an already over powered cavalry that has no proper counter. Muskets don't properly counter, rifleman don't properly counter (even with the infantry bonus), and still, even infantry don't hold up. They are without a counter, they have unreal retreat odds, and in the process, they now smoke cannons without even ever facing them. This is quite frankly stupid.

Artillery units are now essentially WORTHLESS. There is no point in even making them any more. Just make a small group of cavalry, have them attack a guarded, protected stack, and not only do you damage or possibly kill the unit you're attacking, but you chew up the cannons within the stack as well! Great.

Why make artillery units now? Just spam cavalry and everything will go your way. This era of warfare has essentially been reduced to cavalry and airships. That's all you need, and all that is really logical to use in battle any more.

A balanced stack? I'm sorry, but that concept is completely irrational. How do balance a stack when the artillery have no protection. Something's that's ridiculous in concept.

Invading inland cities is stupid with anti air. Airships will chew you up before you get there. And cavalry can just pick up the mess. The only semi-logical warfare in this era, is now invading shoreline cities with a surprise naval attack.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Sorry about the screen shot - I only see a red X.
Let me start by saying I have serious concerns about airships vs. ground units both historically and from a gameplay standpoint, but since I havent seen it happen in the few games I've played I can't say. Sounds to me like it sucks. I think airships should be primarily for recon , with a little anti- ship, pillage and anti city abillity.

Siege units in cities can still kill on the attack .

 

[axident]

Cyrus had 5 airships. I had 8.



I know, I was only going to use them to take the next city. I know they don't kill anymore. I know they've been nerfed. I still needed them to reduce the defenses of inland cities, and I wanted the extra bodies to ensure I could crush Persepolis in one solid blow.



So in the name of nerfing artillery, we have no decided to give more power to an already over powered cavalry that has no proper counter. Muskets don't properly counter, rifleman don't properly counter (even with the infantry bonus), and still, even infantry don't hold up. They are without a counter, they have unreal retreat odds, and in the process, they now smoke cannons without even ever facing them. This is quite frankly stupid.

Artillery units are now essentially WORTHLESS. There is no point in even making them any more. Just make a small group of cavalry, have them attack a guarded, protected stack, and not only do you damage or possibly kill the unit you're attacking, but you chew up the cannons within the stack as well! Great.

Why make artillery units now? Just spam cavalry and everything will go your way. This era of warfare has essentially been reduced to cavalry and airships. That's all you need, and all that is really logical to use in battle any more.

A balanced stack? I'm sorry, but that concept is completely irrational. How do balance a stack when the artillery have no protection. Something's that's ridiculous in concept.

Invading inland cities is stupid with anti air. Airships will chew you up before you get there. And cavalry can just pick up the mess. The only semi-logical warfare in this era, is now invading shoreline cities with a surprise naval attack.

I think BtS is forcing some of us to adapt; don't throw in the towel just yet. Flanking works in some odd way where certain mounted units get certain bonus attacks on certain siege units, so cavalry can chew up cannons even if they are escorted. I am usually WAY ahead so they are using knights to try to kill rifles/infantry/cannon, but speaking hypothetically, if I were in your shoes, I'd just bleed the enemy. Park your best infantry (along with a Medic II unit) on some hills in his territory and hope that he expends most of his units on dislodging them. After a few turns of this, send reinforcements, including your cannons. I used this bleeding tactic a lot in Warlords with pretty good success when I had to face down HUGE armies, except that I sent them in all as one megagroup with a healer and just camped out for a while. Forests and forested hilltops are even better. Pitch a tent on a forested hilltop and let us know how it goes.

 

[Merkinball]

This bleeding technique doesn't really work with cavalry that beat infantry, or simply withdraw. Couple the aspect of airships on top of it, and you look at what amounts to stagnant trench warfare of WWI.

Again, it isn't like I had a pathetic stack. I had what should have been an overwhelming advantage with numbers. In the span of two turns, I have nothing.

 

[LlamaCat]

Again, it isn't like I had a pathetic stack. I had what should have been an overwhelming advantage with numbers. In the span of two turns, I have nothing.

this is one reason they changed things... it's not just about numbers anymore and you need to think about tactics.

move coordinated smaller stacks in different locations, using the best terrain, and use diversion! who said you have to keep all your cannons and infantry in one big stack and just march ahead that way? that only makes them more vulnerable to cavalry with flanking, and especially to airships. Any time you stack units, you open yourself up to collateral damage. A single enemy unit can hit the stack and damage multiple units in one turn. But he can't do that if you have 5 units going one way and 5 units going another way.

and where are your mounted troops to counter the cavalry? pikemen or infantry can be a counter, but they can't move as fast as the cavalry and movement is a key strength that I think is underrated. I strongly suggest the movement promotion. there is a new mounted unit besides cavalry now, I forget the name.

 

[LlamaCat]

Let me start by saying I have serious concerns about airships vs. ground units both historically and from a gameplay standpoint, but since I havent seen it happen in the few games I've played I can't say. Sounds to me like it sucks. I think airships should be primarily for recon , with a little anti- ship, pillage and anti city abillity.

Siege units in cities can still kill on the attack .

airships are great - yes they are powerful but the AI can use them pretty well too. and you are limited to 4 based in any city or fort.

siege units cannot kill anymore... if they successfully do their collateral damage, they withdraw and the enemy is weakened but not dead. airships are a good counter to this limitation because they act like extra siege units. but the other key thing is they can't reduce city defenses, they just weaken units. so you don't want to have airships pounding city defenders until just before your city attackers are ready to attack, otherwise you just give the enemy free promotions. you still need ground siege units or ships on coasts to take down city defense bonus.

 

[Merkinball]

I'm sorry, but splitting them up how? Into smaller stacks? Doesn't seem like there'd be much point to that. Each small stack would still get decimated. Airships would still have the same impact. Cavalry will still DESTROY cannons, no matter how their arrangement.

There is no way to protect cannons anymore. None. No matter how you split them up. X units will still collectively do the same damage against Y units.

and where are your mounted troops to counter the cavalry? pikemen or infantry can be a counter - LLama

I had TWELVE infantry protecting this stack. Not only did the cannons get decimated by the cavalry, but the infantry did too. Pikemen? Seriously, what planet are you people on with trying to fight cavalry with pikemen?

All you need in this era is Cavalry. Spam cavalry with a barracks, vassalage, and theocracy, and you have an unstoppable, uncounterable, uncontested unit with no comparable match. Throw in a few airships, and what are you gonna do against it? Nothing.

 

[HiroHito]

cavalry is overpowered versus the cannons, it gets way too many bonuses and the siege units already got nerfed.

However I find it hard to swallow that 8 cavalry with a 15 strenght could pwn so many infantry with strenght of 20...

 

[azzaman333]

#1 Airships don't cause collateral damage.
#2 By splitting your Infantry/Cannons into smaller stacks, you negate the main strengths of both Flank Attack (which is killing your Cannons) and Collateral Damage from his Cannons (which is killing your Infantry).
#3 Its about time the AI was competent at kicking an enemy stack out of its territory.

cavalry is overpowered versus the cannons, it gets way too many bonuses and the siege units already got nerfed.

However I find it hard to swallow that 8 cavalry with a 15 strenght could pwn so many infantry with strenght of 20...

A good Steel beeline will negate that easily.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

Can someone explain this concept to me? How in the HELL are cavalry killing my cannons, more than one at a time without directly facing them?

Let me get this straight... A group of cavalry can roll up on my stack, beat my infantry into nothing, kill my artillery units in the process, and retreat at unbelievably high odds back into a nearbye city?

I gotta be honest. I think I'm through playing the expansion.

I roll into Cyrus' territory with 15 cannon's, and 12 infantry, to take one weakly defended city. In the span of two turns, with 8 cavalry, and 3 cannons, weakened by my airships, Cyrus has managed to reduce that invasion force to 4, barely breathing infantry, and four of his cavalry are alive still. Explain that to me? Somehow...justify that to me.

This is a crock. With the advent of uncounterable air power that zaps 15% of a unit, so early in the game, it is essentially impossible to make any sort of push into enemy territory on inland cities. Couple that with the fact that an already overpowered cavalry unit can KILL artillery units, more than one at a time, will going after another unit...that is bull__it.

WTH is the point anymore.

First, the obligatory 'Cry More Noob'.

Flanking damage is great, it makes mounted units that SURVIVE battles deal collateral damage to siege weapons. It's extremely realistic, a Cavalry charge in real life that penetrated the infantry would almost surely go take out some nearly defenseless Cannons.

It means you also need to build yourself a proper mixed stack with some defenders promoted specifically to deal with Mounted units. Since a mounted unit that is killed in it's attack deals no flanking damage, that can solve the problem.

 

[Merkinball]

I don't think we're getting the concept, or the points here.

#1 Airships don't cause collateral damage. - Azza

You're right, I know this. Accounted for it in previous posts. They deal 18% damage to the infantry.

#2 By splitting your Infantry/Cannons into smaller stacks, you negate the main strengths of both Flank Attack (which is killing your Cannons) and Collateral Damage from his Cannons (which is killing your Infantry).

How spread thin are you supposed to be here? Why spread yourself thin. You are quite frankly more vulnerable. You can't penetrate effectively. How would you have split the stack up? Either way, you're still vulnerable to the uncounterable airships. If you are taking an inland city, you can count at least three barragges of damage from the airships to begin with. You hit one stack with each cannon, send in two cavalry per stack, and all of your units are still effectively decimated by a force, that by comparison, is paltry.

#3 Its about time the AI was competent at kicking an enemy stack out of its territory. - Azza

What's competent about the AI pumping units with a gunpowder promoted cavalry, right of the bat, producing uncounterable airships. Spamming them, and completely and utterly stopping your ability to take an inland city. Again, FIFTEEN cannons...gone, by a handful of cavalry. Each cavalry killing multiple cannons per turn. There's nothing intelligent about that. There's nothing creative either. Spam cavalry. Win. That's all this era has boiled down to again. They retreat easier now...it's ridiculous.

Flanking damage is great, it makes mounted units that SURVIVE battles deal collateral damage to siege weapons. It's extremely realistic, a Cavalry charge in real life that penetrated the infantry would almost surely go take out some nearly defenseless Cannons. - Barb

In concept, yes. In application to a game that is supposed to be balanced, it's utterly horrible. Particularly when a gunpowder promoted cavalry beats infantry, and owns rifleman. And again, look at retreat odds. How is this balanced? How is this great? It's awesome if you're defending, because Corky has the IQ to spam airships and cavalry. Why should attacking in such manner turn into an impossibility? You need a massive number of troops to have any semblence of a prayer of taking an inland city now.

It means you also need to build yourself a proper mixed stack with some defenders promoted specifically to deal with Mounted units. Since a mounted unit that is killed in it's attack deals no flanking damage, that can solve the problem. - Barb

Oh yeah? So uhhhh. Just how many infantry are you required to sacrafice in order to accomplish this? 50?

Figure, the AI will have 2-4 cities within proximity of the target city with airships. Then, the typical cavalry spam the AI generates. It will take you at least three turns to get through cultural borders. You'll need one turn to take down defenses. How much damage are you gonna take from the airships in these vollies? How many times will the cavalry retreat in these vollies? It doesn't take a whole lot now to decimate 75 units if you're a defender.

 

[azzaman333]

How spread thin are you supposed to be here? Why spread yourself thin. You are quite frankly more vulnerable. You can't penetrate effectively. How would you have split the stack up? Either way, you're still vulnerable to the uncounterable airships. If you are taking an inland city, you can count at least three barragges of damage from the airships to begin with. You hit one stack with each cannon, send in two cavalry per stack, and all of your units are still effectively decimated by a force, that by comparison, is paltry.

I haven't tried this in a game, but 3 stacks next to each other with a Medic 3 in the middle stack should be enough. With 2 different 3-stack forces going into an enemies lands at 2 different points you should be able to get to the city and heal/bombarb without taking significant losses in any stack.

What's competent about the AI pumping units with a gunpowder promoted cavalry, right of the bat, producing uncounterable airships. Spamming them, and completely and utterly stopping your ability to take an inland city. Again, FIFTEEN cannons...gone, by a handful of cavalry. Each cavalry killing multiple cannons per turn. There's nothing intelligent about that. There's nothing creative either. Spam cavalry. Win. That's all this era has boiled down to again. They retreat easier now...it's ridiculous.

You need to rethink your war tactics for this era apparently.

In concept, yes. In application to a game that is supposed to be balanced, it's utterly horrible. Particularly when a gunpowder promoted cavalry beats infantry, and owns rifleman. And again, look at retreat odds. How is this balanced? How is this great? It's awesome if you're defending, because Corky has the IQ to spam airships and cavalry. Why should attacking in such manner turn into an impossibility? You need a massive number of troops to have any semblence of a prayer of taking an inland city now.

Combat 2 Riflemen vs Combat 1/Pinch Cavalry is roughly 50-50, and Infantry would win more than they lose. You may have had some bad RNG luck.

Oh yeah? So uhhhh. Just how many infantry are you required to sacrafice in order to accomplish this? 50?

Rethink your tactics.

Figure, the AI will have 2-4 cities within proximity of the target city with airships. Then, the typical cavalry spam the AI generates. It will take you at least three turns to get through cultural borders. You'll need one turn to take down defenses. How much damage are you gonna take from the airships in these vollies? How many times will the cavalry retreat in these vollies? It doesn't take a whole lot now to decimate 75 units if you're a defender.

Attack from multiple fronts at once, much harder to defend against 2 stacks coming from across opposite sides of the empire.

 

[axident]

This bleeding technique doesn't really work with cavalry that beat infantry, or simply withdraw. Couple the aspect of airships on top of it, and you look at what amounts to stagnant trench warfare of WWI.

Again, it isn't like I had a pathetic stack. I had what should have been an overwhelming advantage with numbers. In the span of two turns, I have nothing.

Oh please. Infantry loitering in a forest or a forested hilltop will blow away Cavalry. Even a hilltop will give them great odds, despite any incidental airship damage. Sounds like you don't have a good enough medic--or any at all--or move around too much. Just march slowly and surely and pause if you just took a beating.

Or..... forget the siege. Go all infantry. But before you invade, plant several spies in each city you want to take. Then, as your infantry get 1 turn away from the cities, incite a revolt. Down go the walls. You don't get collateral damage this way, but you don't need siege, either. This may not work so well if he's got advanced infantry garrisons, but it's just a suggestion.

Or.... get him to fight someone else, or wait till he's fighting someone else and his army is on another front, then zap his rear garrisons.

Or... close in on multiple cities. The AI gets confused, as would most human players. Not all stacks need to be city-killers, some can be distractions and just camp out on forested hilltops or something, with a medic.

Or... amphibious assault! Marines aren't far past Infantry. Yes I know you talked about his inland cities, but just forget about them if you don't want the trouble.

Or... pick on someone else.

Or... don't lose your tech lead in the first place. My current game, I got involved in way too many early wars, dogpiles, etc. which hurt me, but I'm going to win anyway because my main rival has +14 war weariness and climbing, and I still have a substantial tech lead.. Infantry v. Curassiers (sp?). Even if he gets cavs within the next 10 turns, I will be building artillery (not cannons) and Combat I + Drill IV tanks courtesy of the mountain of GG's I accumulated from all of my various wars.

Be creative instead of using the same tactics all the time and lamenting about how the game changed. Change with the game!

 

[Yakk]

You should try to kill the opposing cannons using your units.

Screen your stack: an infantry all by itself can take a cavalry with it.

Bring cavalry: they can chew up roads for you, reducing the ability for the enemy to retreat.

Keep your cannons back until the infantry are entrenched if possible. +25% defense bonus, and destroyed roads, is good.

Land at high-defense bonus locations. Find high-defense approaches.

If your force is wounded, either retreat to boats/better defensive terrain, or hold position and heal up.

Remember, each cavalry you kill is one less cavalry. If you can kill more enemy hammers than you lose hammers...

The cannons are decimated by the enemy cavalry, even if your stack is protected. That means you cannot deploy mass cannons until after the enemy cavalry has been dealt with.

A few pillaged roads would make enemy cannons unable to approach your stack without being open to being taken out. Those same pillaged roads would leave enemy cavalry open to counter attack when they retreat. If you clear out roads faster than the enemy builds them, you can isolate enemy cities.

Now advance with cannons. Have a shield of infantry in front.

III
 C

with enough pillaged roads that cavalry can't reach the cannons without leaving themselves open to being killed.

Move cannons up slowly. Keep units healed using medic units (possibly medic 3s). The enemy will have to burn more than 1 cavalry to kill 1 of your cannons.

Sure, that makes war a matter of utter land destruction, slow and griding, with lots of casualties on each side. Welcome to the WWI era.