1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[GS] Flood Barriers

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Spartacus73, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. Spartacus73

    Spartacus73 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2018
    Messages:
    23
    Gender:
    Male
    I only have a couple games in on GS so this is far from a comprehensive analysis, but I'm noticing that the balance between rising sea levels and flood barriers seems a little off. Namely, you are barely getting the tech to build the barriers by the time water is rising, and the cost of the barriers is sometimes such that you just can't build them fast enough. So instead of it being an option on if you choose to spend the resources on the barriers or not, you almost have to just except the loss of territory.

    I typically play between Immortal to Diety level, standard maps, standard time. Usually by that stage in the game I'm even with or ahead of most civs in the game except for possibly one runaway that I'm chasing. In my current game as Dido on an islands map, I had conquered Spain who started on the same land mass as I and he had quite a bit of low lands, including his capital, Madrid. I conquered him before the seas started rising and before I got the flood barriers tech, and started to build them immediately when I could. In my original capital Tyre, I only had one tile and built the barrier with no problem. Another of my original cities had 2 tiles and built the barrier in time to save 1 tile but not the other. And in the conquered Spanish cities...ugly. None of them completed in time, have lost 4-5 tiles so far, and I think Madrid is going to sink into the sea shortly with the last rise of the ocean. Yes, a former capital is going the way of Atlantis. Not sure what that's going to do to the Victory Conditions when it just no longer exists so curious to see what happens there.

    So as far as balance, the issues I see are:
    - Sea levels start going up to quickly relative to when you get the tech to offset.
    - Production costs of barriers are potentially too high. Currently, it seems that the value is tied to how many tiles need to be protected. In my above example, I think Madrid had 5-6 tiles that needed to be protected, so it was around 2100 hammers to build the flood barrier. Madrid was also on relatively flat land so production wasn't great, but at a moderate 50 hammer/turn production you're looking at 42 turns to build a flood barrier, which seems pretty ridiculous. Only Wonders should take that amount of turns for an average developed city to produce. Tyre's was relatively easy with only 1 tile. I didn't catch the total hammer cost before I completed it, but I think it took around 8-10 turns and Tyre has pretty decent production for an islands map.
    - Even after I permanently lost the 1m tiles, I didn't see it recalculate and adjust the flood barrier production for the city, i.e. it was still building the flood barrier around the lost tile anyway instead of focusing on the tiles which could still be saved.

    A couple of initial thoughts/ideas:
    - Delay or slow the sea level increase. It starts fairly soon after coal plants start getting built, and it goes up fast. About every 7-10 turns in my current game on Standard speed, and you can hardly build a one tile flood barrier in that time.
    - Build floor barriers one tile at a time, instead of the entire flood barrier for a city being calculated and built at once. This allows you to prioritize which tiles to save, and you can also completely finish one and then move to another if you have time. Currently, you're trying to build the entire thing and losing your 1m tiles while your 3m tiles aren't even being threatened yet. This compounds if your 1m tile happens to be a hammer tile, and once you lose it it pushes out the finish time of the flood barrier even further.
    - Add some earlier floor barrier (dike?) that can be constructed with an earlier tech and later upgraded for a cheaper cost. That earlier barrier can be less effective, or only built on the 1m tiles, or something along those lines, but if it shortened the build time of a full barrier for 1 tile down to 4-5 turns later it would then be viable to actually save tiles if you choose.

    Just some initial thoughts/observations. I gave up on most of the barriers in this game because I clearly had no chance to build them before the land was lost, which was kind of annoying. Oddly, I have a Harbor floating in the middle of the ocean and not touching any land that still seems fully functional now. It's a fair mechanic to choose whether to divert production into flood protection or not, but only if it's actually a viable choice consistently. Initially, this looks like something that you're just going to have to accept losing tiles to more often then not, which is kind of annoying.
     
    Meluhhan likes this.
  2. DrJambo

    DrJambo Crash-test dummy

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2001
    Messages:
    1,027
    Location:
    Athens of the North (Edinburgh)
    Yup, the whole climate change mechanic is out of whack as it stands. It happens too fast, and it's essentially unpreventable with the costs for dams exorbitant and all the greener alternatives coming far too late.
     
    Spartacus73 likes this.
  3. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2016
    Messages:
    3,417
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Warsaw
    Yup, I second that.
    It would be actually nice to have 3 types, for 1m, 2m and 3m. Unlocking at various times, 1m like you said earlier, 2m like now, maybe 3m a bit later.
     
    Spartacus73 likes this.
  4. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Messages:
    1,347
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    It'd be great if they had a power req that allowed them to reclaim the partially submerged tiles before they disappear completely. Maybe a project unlocked by flood barriers. A flood barrier with a few 1000gpm pumps should do it. ;) Power intense but with renewables should be fine right?
     
  5. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    4,512
    "A little" being a good candidate for understatement of the month.
     
    Lupine and Spartacus73 like this.
  6. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 King

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    851
    I strongly disagree. Flood barriers should come later in the game and be hard to build and they haev the right balance now (the only unbalanced thing if you can purchase flood barriers for 200 measly faith if you have Valetta). Otherwise you have no incentive to avoid climate change. The whole point of climate change is supposed to be that it makes your game more difficult. Frankly, I don't think climate change does *enough* harm in the game, as it's barely a blip. I think more tiles should be flooded (or, rather that more tiles be flooded as it gets higher, from 4 on up -- right now, everything just goes to 3 and time stands still, and all the pollution in the air makes no difference).

    Pollution should also negatively impact your amenities, and the benefits of power should be enhanced. Ok i'm getting off topic.
     
    Julia97 likes this.
  7. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,405
    You either bee line for Computers so you can get them up before they are actually needed, or you don't build anything of value on at risk tiles.
     
  8. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    10,216
    My main issue is the price is a touch too steep.
    Dams are also a dam waste of time.
    If they want something to chew up production and keep you busy, there are better alternatives.
     
    Socrates99 and Spartacus73 like this.
  9. tedhebert

    tedhebert King

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Messages:
    605
    Location:
    Montreal, Canada
    Yes well... that may also be just because you're a max/min player at heart.

    Myself, I like to build all useful improvement in my cities that I can... not useless ones, no, but I will pay significant production to build it if I can ans it's useful.

    So Dams and Flood Barriers are great I think... But I do agree about the timing of flood barriers... honestly, when they come, I build them in cities already flooded... should have had the chance to build them before that imho
     
  10. King Rad

    King Rad Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Pensacola, Florida
    I agree with @Victoria that the price might be a little steep. I'm only on my 2nd game, and not to them yet in it. But in my first game I lost most of an island city [settled to get the oil in the ocean as I had nothing else in my territory], and I found it tough to get the barriers up in some cities in addition to the island city - did a lot of trade route 'rerouting.' But overall, I like them and the difficulties presented. I do like dams though, because of the renewable power. I had real resource issues in my first game with regard to fuel resources. Don't know how the second will play out, as I'm playing as Canada and hopefully will find oil and uranium in the snow and tundra around my cities.
     
    Spartacus73 likes this.
  11. Phoenix1595

    Phoenix1595 Lord of the Two Lands

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    1,010
    The flooding clock starts way too soon after industrialization. The game should permit a certain level of CO2 emissions to exist prior to the flood clock. IRL, the real threat of global flooding as a result of CO2 emissions has been the result of the industrialization of the developing world since the 1970s. As the game stands now, that threat begins with the first use of coal using 19th century tech. One civ could be well ahead in the industrialization process, yet be the sole contributor to speeding up the flood clock.

    Just like the Ages clock is tied to the progress of ALL civs, so should the Flooding clock. Basing Day Zero on some sort of baseline mark of all Civs’ emissions would help adjust the game so as to avoid the break-neck speed of Warming effects.

    In plain English: global warming should not really be a threat until at least some plurality of civs have achieved inudustrialization, not just one or two. After that, I agree that the consequences should be devastating in order to incentivize and challenge players.
     
  12. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,459
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    Regardless of whether or not people think Warming to harsh enough... as people have noted, right now, whether you're a dirty or clean power user, climate change is rapid and unavoidable (especially if you are not a super tech runaway - since the AI will have a military that uses oil) which leads to the logical conclusion that you should plan on not being able to get flood barriers up.

    If you assume you won't get the barriers up, then you should plan on losing lowlands late game.
    If you know lowlands are going to be flooded, then there is no reason to not generate all the emissions you want, since flooding is going to happen anyways.

    Thus, the entire system degenerates into Sid Meier's Coal Burning Festival. Whereas I think they were trying to go for a scheme where you have some tough choices to make about climate vs short term economy.
     
  13. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    5,068
    IT's also odd that making a seawall costs more than building a spaceship and launching someone onto another planet.
     
    MrRadar, sonicmyst and OmegaDestroyer like this.
  14. DJ_Tanner

    DJ_Tanner Emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,010
    I think the best solution would be an early tech for say a Levee early that changes all 1m to 2m, a flood barrier that changes all 2m to 3m later in the tree, finally the seawall that protects all 3m from flooding.
     
  15. BarbarianHunter

    BarbarianHunter King

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Messages:
    978
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    I think the system makes sense and works well so far as gameplay is concerned. I can generally get to computers in time to build flood barriers if I want to. If I choose to research computers then I will necessarily divert away from the warmongering bottom of the tech tree and towards the top.
     
  16. OmegaDestroyer

    OmegaDestroyer Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    469
    Gender:
    Male
    I beeline for computers, build up flood barriers, go HARD on coal factories, kick back, and watch the world drown. I only wish the flooding was more substantial, like half the planet.
     
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    10,216
    Have you seen flood plains at the beginning of the game? You need them to flood.
    The idea being once they have flooded a few times they have good yields and then You dam them.
    I have played 2 games to T300 and only built 2 dams to try them out and for hydro.
    The second game I just did not bother with tier 3 buildings at all, you reach the end of both trees by then so it is just immersive. I just went strait to renewables, you do not need the step in between ATM unless you went production heavy. And then what? You still run out of things to build by T300.
    I just built builders and planted trees... I wish there was a terraform option.
     
  18. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2017
    Messages:
    1,459
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Minnesota, USA
    IIRC Even if you melted all the sea ice in the world completely (over 200 feet of sea rise) the US would end up like this:
    Spoiler :



    The problem is that people like to live on the coasts all over the world, but most of the land itself wouldn't go anywhere.
    The other thing is that sea level rise is relatively slow; to think that the common "half of Manhattan would be flooded with 10 ft of sea rise!" or whatever figure would come to pass, is nuts. Given the scale of road work in cities today, they could easily slap down 10 ft concrete barriers or whatever to interdict the ocean. And that's way easier than building a new city. The fact that the dutch have pulled this trick for a couple hundred years on vast areas of land should point to the fact that flood barriers really aren't that complex.
    They are extremely expensive in the game to build, and also maintain. I think I would do one or the other, but not both. I also think that carbon recapture type stuff (and massive tree planting) should have some way to actually reverse part of the warming effects.
     
    WillowBrook and Banazir864 like this.
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    Messages:
    10,216
    On a side note I saw a program the other day that was saying that a volcano in the canaries could collapse anytime in the next 200 years and cause a 350 meter Megatsunami 30 km wide that would aim straight for the American coast.
    Let’s see the flood barrier for that!
     
  20. King Rad

    King Rad Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    224
    Location:
    Pensacola, Florida
    @Victoria, I'm assuming that's the East Coast? Since I live in the Panhandle of Florida, on a mountain about 20 meters tall [one of highest spots in town!], I'm trusting I'll survive to play more civ games.
     

Share This Page