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Flood plains overkill - city placement tips?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Ray Patterson, Mar 1, 2010.

  1. Ray Patterson

    Ray Patterson the dude is not in

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    Just started a new game, Noble/Epic/Continents. Three food resources in my starting Fat Cross (pig, cow and corn). Relevant because immediately to the south I discovered this:

    Spoiler :


    15 flood plains tightly packed together. Where do I put cities there? I could have cities grabbing as many as 10 flood plains. But that means -4 health... and I have no special health buildings or attributes. So that seems like too much, right? How many flood plains is workable? 5? Maybe even 7? And does somebody have an idea where in this mess of floodplains and mountains I could effectively do that? Because most places where you don't take too many floodplains seem to be away from the river... :crazyeye: Help!
     
  2. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    2E of the northern corn (commerce) and 2W of the southern corn (production).
     
  3. Ray Patterson

    Ray Patterson the dude is not in

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    Alright... so then just let them live in the filth I guess? Hm actually that might make sense. The extra food offsets it in a way. Still, the northern city would have -4 health, right?
     
  4. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Fresh water helps offset some of the unhealthiness. The rest you can take care of with resources.
     
  5. mariogreymist

    mariogreymist Deity

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    I don't see a lot of resources there. I'd be wary about that 9fp site...it could get hairy. Here's what i'd do (assuming you don't have additional food resources):
    Spoiler :

    While the NW commerce site is not as good as in Shyuhe's suggestion, it won't experience any significant drawbacks from it until cities are getting quite large. The city in the NE will serve as a solid naval production center, and the one in the S will be a good military producer, and even be able to work cottages when the situation calls for it. But like I said, if you do have food resources readily available, then shyuhe's placement is what I would do.
     
  6. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

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    Unless you desperately need the surplus food for something like running plains cottages, I think anything more than 4 or 5 floodplains is pretty overkill for a single city. Those floodplains are easily enough to accommodate three cities, and I see no reason not to place (at least) that many to leverage them.

    I would squeeze in two cities near the top there, one next to the corn and one further off to the right. I'm not really sure exactly how to place these, but I think two cities is necessary to get the most out of the terrain. Placing one city in the middle will exacerbate unhealthiness from floodplains and leave you with a lot of food and not a lot of ways to use it. As long as you're going to have more food than you know what to do with, you might as well spread it between multiple cities. There will be a lot of overlap, but trying too hard to minimize overlap is a surefire way to get bad city placement.

    As for the bottom area, I would settle one city 2W of that corn and make it into a production city. Farming floodplains to run hills isn't the most elegant way to get production, but it's effective, and you should have enough cottages between the two cities above it to allow you to afford it.
     
  7. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    I don't see any resources there. Ctrl R please!
     
  8. Ray Patterson

    Ray Patterson the dude is not in

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    Well I followed shyuhe's suggestion. Founded the southern one first for land grab, then to the west for copper, and filled in the northern one. Then came my first successful axe rush on noble. Kublai Khan had 4 cities... took them all. Economy tanked, but now I'm back on track.

    Here are both those cities, Osaka and Satsuma, AD 400
    Spoiler :

    Yeah I know I should do some backtracking worker-stuff. Coming right up! The corn seems unnecessary atm, which indeed suggests that DigitalBoy was right. There's just no need for that much food. It's not even the health problem, but the unhappiness as a result of too big a city too quick. I guess Satsuma could have been a GP farm? Flood plain GP is not as nice as food resource GP I guess.

    Here's Satsuma AD 400:
    Spoiler :

    Not too shabby. If you think FP farm - powered mines are iffy, I guess I shouldn't even be showing you the FP cottage powered mines! Especially for Osaka I simply built the cottages because I was nearly bankrupt. But I gotta say I think it works. The great advantage of these unspecialized cities (yes, I went there) is that they have loads of commerce and the necessary hammers to build their libraries, markets and courthouses. It's a pretty impressive growth spurt. I guess if I hadn't axe rushed they would be ineffective for either gaining a tech advantage or starting a war, but now to consolidate my empire they're actually useful.

    Comments? Please be kind... :sad:
     
  9. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Osaka with farms and mines only allow it to double both as production and as a temporary GP farm until you get a proper one set up.
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    It hurts to see unimproved corn in one of your first 4 cities that late in the game. Hook up your food specials!
     
  11. mariogreymist

    mariogreymist Deity

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    If I see those correctly...you're not in HR yet? You've got a riverside corn which is unfarmed and unworked, and essentially useless because you are at your happy cap. I would get into HR ASAP and start working all those tiles. And, btw: with two calendar-driven happiness resources, calendar should be on your short list, but never above monarchy.
     
  12. Wreck

    Wreck Prince

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    First off, especially with the health resources you already have, and the medium difficulty level, you've got plenty of health to run any city you want. Basically, you just need enough health to bootstrap the city. Even if you put a city right in the middle of that area, and got -4 health, that would be offset by your health resources as soon as you got the granary up.

    But it is certainly a good idea to place any city that you want to get large towards the periphery of all that floodplain. Ideally, you want a city that has 2, 4, or 7 floodplains, since the .4 unhealth each is truncated down. You want commerce cities to be as large as possible. For hammer cities, it doesn't matter much if they are small, since they don't build much infrastructure.

    (I once started a game at, I think, immortal where I was initially overjoyed to see all floodplains surrounding my start... but then after the city was founded, and was immediately unhealthy at pop 1, I realized that too much floodplain really is a problem.)

    Second point here is, I was going to give you my opinion, but in any real game I would never lay out a dotmap on something like this without much more scouting. At the very least you want to know is within 2 squares of all the fresh water sources. I.e. that river in the south; what's south of it? Also I'd really want to get the coast scouted for seafood, and know what lies west of the area, too.

    That said, here's what cities I'd do given only what I can see on your map:
    • 2E,1S of northern corn -- yeah, it's got that -4 health from 8 floodplains. So what? It's got corn, so once it gets going it can run cottages on all floodplains and still run mines all those hills. This city is a whopper.
    • 6E,1N of northern corn -- same site as mariogreymist said; not a great site but does not overlap with your capital's fat cross, and stays away from very much unhealth.
    • 5S of northern corn -- get 3 floodplains for sure, but probably 4th is there in SW corner of your screenie. That's +3 or +4 food right there for -1 health. Great cottage site, especially if there are resources out there in the fog.
    • 2S of southern corn -- that's a plains hill, right? I love plains hills for cities due to extra :hammers: and defensibility. This site gets health via harbor eventually, gets no health penalty for floodplains because it gets just 2 of them.

    But again, scout more, turn on resources, resnap, and ask again.
     
  13. bestsss

    bestsss Emperor

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    This is why Sid create the whip. There is no useless irrigated corn. Share if you have to.
    Working unimproved tiles screams: whip the damn workers.
     
  14. dragomaster

    dragomaster Warlord

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    Maybe i'm late here but this is how i whold settle this place!

    Spoiler :
     

    Attached Files:

  15. mariogreymist

    mariogreymist Deity

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    Oh, I agree. But that tile, as it is unshared, would be worth about 10x what it is now if there were HR in play (which there should be by this point).
     
  16. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Actually, if possible, I'd go with dragomaster's city layout. 2 nice commerce cities while the coastal one can work cottgaes for the 2 bigger cities. The southern one has no food resource, but 4 floodplains means it has 4 surplus food anyway.

    EDIT: Did I just read a phrase that said "useless irrigated corn?" Are we playing the same game? :eek: :eek:
     
  17. gfm

    gfm Refuses to Talk!!!

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    I guess he meant that the corn could be very useful indeed if :
    1. The OP was in Hereditary Rule - thus allowing him the :) needed to grow his cities
    2. The damn corn was farmed ! :cry:

    As I understand it, he didn't mean that the tile was useless, but that the OP just wasn't taking advantage of a great tile. Could be me though.
     
  18. Ray Patterson

    Ray Patterson the dude is not in

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    Thanks for driving down the Hereditary Rule. You're absolutely right: I've gotten lazy playing too many games on even lower levels, where I either built the pyramids or just caught large amounts of luxuries. Hereditary Rule is usually kind of an afterthought for me, and not in part of the tech tree I like (not a fan of religions usually). But that's all excuses, you're just right. Lots to learn...
     
  19. Narnia

    Narnia Prince

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    I am a newbie (I got the game for Christmas and I don't play much) so I am not the best person to ask but I once used worldbuilder to change all the terrain around my starting city to nothing but flood plains (I changed nothing else) and I did better on that game than I have on any other game. I had to worry about overpopulation/polution problems a lot but other than that the city was a powerhouse.
     
  20. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    so, flood plains give +1 food over grasslands but +.5 unhealth, or something like that. Therefore what I do with flood plains is something like this -
    1) counteract them with other health bonuses, if the city is coastal, on a river, and has 4 forests in the BFC the floodplains aren't a problem
    2) pack the cities in tightly. Less population = less health problem, use specialists.
    3) floodplains are bad for a GP farm, not great for a production city, thus they often make good sites for commercial cities. Again, try to use terrain to add health, like fresh water. Don't build a forge or factory there.
     

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