1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[RD] Florida School Shooting

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hrothbern, Feb 15, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    22,974
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    It's not going to just kill them, it's just going to do what needs to be done to ensure public safety as all the ammosexuals act out their silly fantasies of standing up against tyranny. I honestly do think it may come to that - the discourse around the issue is so poisoned by gun industry propaganda that there is no way to let off the steam in a productive way. They're creating a society where the problems with guns being everywhere are obvious, and eventually that built-up pressure will be let loose, but the ammosexuals aren't going to like what happens then. If they had more than few brain cells to rub together they'd yield now to get a seat at the table for a policy solution to this problem. As is the solution is going to be done by people like me who have no patience with pro-gun crap and think the 2nd amendment should just be trashed.
     
    hobbsyoyo, Hygro and Azem.Ocram like this.
  2. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    17,397
    Yeah. It's relatively popular to dehumanize people here. Not the worst place on the internet, by any means. However, if you don't appreciate being told you're subhuman for disagreeing, or that you're a monster - I suggest liberal use of the "block poster" function or simply just run man. Run.
     
  3. Azem.Ocram

    Azem.Ocram Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Messages:
    560
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    WA
    To be against gun regulation and seem vehemetely opposed to it shortly after a mass shooting, puts one at odds with the majority, common sense, and compassion. This puts said person in a position where he can reasonably expect a degree of pushback, and depending on audience, (not completely undeserving) vitriol.
     
  4. stinkubus

    stinkubus Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2016
    Messages:
    1,247
    LOL it really is that simple. If you don't wish to be labeled a monster don't say monstrous things.
     
    aelf likes this.
  5. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    22,974
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    "The ideas that I invest in gun ownership are more important than children's lives"
     
  6. Chose

    Chose King

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Location:
    USA
    Yeah, I think most pro-gun people would be happy to defend that position. They want to error on the side of freedom and have an armed population if the government were to become tyrannical, and they argue the cost of losing those things is too great. Obviously I don't agree with that argument.

    My whole point is that the people who want to ban assault rifles but not handguns are arguably on less firm ground. You want to reduce the amount of lethality so you ban assault rifles, great. The question is why not ban handguns as well, since by death count they are astronomically worse? I think a fair position would be to ban assault rifles now, it will do some good and it seems that maybe the American population would accept it, and then take on handguns later. But at the same time, if you are concerned with loss of life, we really should be focusing on handguns.

    I don't mind it. I was just trying to get a feel for how strong the tribalism mindset was here. The conservative leaning people here seem to generally do a better job of carefully stating their position and arguing for it, despite the fact I may disagree with them. If you can make a blanket assertions such as the one I previously quoted, based in what must be ignorance and intolerance, it shows that many people of the majority opinion here feel no need to justify their position or engage with the other side, since they view them as diseased and evil.
     
  7. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    22,974
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    I do view right-wing politics as fundamentally irreconcilable with my own values. That doesn't make right-wingers impossible to treat with, but it does mean that there are some thing I'm just not going to agree with them on under any circumstances.

    Like this for example. I think that you're right, but I think this position is utterly demented. And normally I would just find it amusing, but since it's actually demonstrably leading to huge numbers of pointless deaths it has to be addressed, one way or another.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
  8. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    17,397
    Eh. How would many of them ever figure out the accuracy of their perceived vehemence? More to the point, they don't want to, near as I can tell. The punching bag is what they seek. Like all people who want, first and foremost, to hurt.
     
  9. Chose

    Chose King

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Location:
    USA
    Even so, you could still try the tactic of actually engaging with their best arguments and attempt to persuade them instead of comments like:

    Many conservatives genuinely have their heart in the right place. They think the cost of freedom is high, they are as horrified by these shootings as anyone, but they genuinely think it would be worse to give up this freedom because it would lead to worse consequences. If you thought that banning guns in the US would lead to another soviet union and the deaths of millions and millions of people, you would be the monster to be for banning guns. So what needs to be done is a persuasive argument for why banning guns doesn't necessarily lead to the soviet union, not demonizing those who old that position.
     
  10. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    17,397
    Careful there Chose, you might be dealing with a demon and not even know it.
     
  11. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    22,974
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    This is a paranoid delusion that is totally incompatible with a person having their heart in the right place. Like, what you just described is morally equivalent to a paranoid schizophrenic who goes on a killing spree because he believes that if he doesn't murder people Satan will take over the earth. He may even regret the perceived necessity of his actions.

    Incidentally, many conservatives may believe in the 'price of freedom' logic but just as many seem to believe that if we arm even more people we can reduce the number of people shot. This is also an incredibly dangerous, utterly delusional belief that demonstrably leads to pointless deaths.
     
  12. Chose

    Chose King

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Location:
    USA
    But it is just not all paranoid delusion. You must know that historically tyrannical governments have been the most horrifying and powerful criminals of all. These fears are not* delusion.
     
  13. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    22,974
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    Uh, yeah, I agree that tyrannical governments have massacred their people. What I don't agree with is that flooding society with guns will do anything to prevent this. Let's make another analogy. Someone might think that they have to snap their fingers three times every fifteen minutes or a comet will impact the Earth, causing a mass extinction. This fear is no less delusional because comets actually exist and have even hit the Earth and caused mass extinctions before.
     
  14. stinkubus

    stinkubus Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2016
    Messages:
    1,247
    Right wingers may more clearly articulate their positions (I don't really agree with this, either on CFC or the world at large), but they are nearly always bad-faith arguments based on false premises and an assortment of logical fallacies. These folks get dunked on repeatedly, ignore all the posts which debunk their "arguments", only respond when the opposition makes a weak post, and just continue to spew the same BS over and over and over.

    "Conservatism" is little more than appeals to people's fears and prejudices. Arguments don't really matter because their beliefs aren't formed by reason. Anyone who cares enough to do a modest amount of research will quickly come to the conclusion that there is no personal stash of firearms that's going to stop the United States government from crushing you if that's what it wants to do. They are also going to come to the conclusion that having a gun in the home is more likely to lead to a suicide attempt or accidental shooting than it is to be used in self defense.

    Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary every time the subject of gun control comes up the same tired and repeatedly debunked arguments get trotted out time and time again. The rest of us are sick and tired of paying in blood just so maladjusted adults can own a security blanket.

    When it comes time to get people motivated to make a change via the political process appeals to emotion are almost always necessary. A cold, rational analysis of the evils of private gun ownership isn't going to motivate anyone who doesn't already strongly agree with you. Shocking images of dead children and demonizing the opposition stand a puncher's chance of success.

    If you haven't noticed conservatives aren't shy about demonizing their opposition (just ask one of them what they think about Hillary Clinton), and it plays very, very well to their supporters.
     
  15. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    22,974
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    It's simply a term for habits of thought encouraged by the PR campaign the rich have been waging since the 70s for aristocratic domination of American society.

    That it is used in a domestic violence incident is actually a more likely outcome than accidental shooting. Not that this detracts from your point.
     
  16. Chose

    Chose King

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Location:
    USA
    @stinkubus, I have noticed conservatives like to demonize the other side, and obviously I don't like that either.

    @Lexicus, I think you are now one step closing to actually engaging with their argument. However, the analogy isn't very fair or persuasive. If you are interested in actually changing minds, you can start by finding common ground. We already did, you could say that you understand why they are afraid of tyrannical governments. Then you could say that you understand why it might seem like having an armed population would help prevent it; however, you don't think this is actually the case for the following reasons...[insert actual argument]. Also, very smart people have come down on different sides of this argument, which is more reason why I don't think the analogy is fair at all.
     
  17. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    22,974
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    It's not meant to persuade, it's meant to show people who don't have their heads up their rears as a result of NRA propaganda exactly what they're dealing with.
     
  18. Chose

    Chose King

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Messages:
    669
    Location:
    USA
    Well it didn't show that either, and I'm starting to doubt you are actually reading my comments.
     
  19. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    22,974
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    I'm just not responding to most of it because I disagree and don't think we can resolve that disagreement here.
     
  20. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    5,429
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    From pondering on that...
    considering the big differences between the states of the US....
    considering also that moment in US history where Kennedy ordered the federalised Alabama National Guard to intervene in that "George Wallace/University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa" incident
    Will a too strict federal approach not be impossible to get across political and operational ?

    Is that gun issue not really a state issue instead of a federal issue ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2018
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page