Food

I started to fix it, but then other issues came inbetween. At this moment, I put 1 :food: yield on the polar terrain, that's all.
My second step is to eliminate all :food: from resources. The third step, whether an improvement on resources yields :food: is debatable, and depends on how we see the He³ trade with Earth.
 
I think I had it set up in XML where food decreased by 1 from He3 resources with a specific tech until it hits zero at Isolation. It was meant to not need python to show the Moon needed to stop importing food.
 
An event causing the cut-off from Earth supplies is better IMO. But that has to wait for now I suppose.
Btw, have you ever considered the possibility that a civ could declare independency before Isolation occurs? In this case a food cut-off should happen too I think.
 
Due to the costs of launching things to the moon from earth, I don't think that food imports would be feasable on any sort of long term. I think that the colonists would make it a first priority to generate their own food. So short term in fact that they should be food independant by the end of the first turn (year).
We should severly restric food imports from earth. (perhaps a single early national wonder would allow it?)
He3 should generate Money.
We could replace the food imports from earth mechanic with an imigration mechanic.
Something like this:
No improved tiles (or very few, just food resources have 3 food) produce more than two food during the time before isolation, but exactly two food is easy to achieve. This is so your citys don't grow much, but new population will be usefull and not starve.
Write a python script that generates imigrants to your citys (new population) based on the amount of He3 you control. People want to imigrate to rich colonys, right? Only add free population intermitantly, and only as long as happiness and health allow.

After Isolation there would be improved terrain improvements that allow more food to be generated, so specialists and field workiers generating no food will be feasable.
 
Due to the costs of launching things to the moon from earth, I don't think that food imports would be feasable on any sort of long term. I think that the colonists would make it a first priority to generate their own food. So short term in fact that they should be food independant by the end of the first turn (year).

Think of how long the ISS is orbiting Earth already and still there's no hydroponics bay in it. ;)
Also, every city has a 2 food output on its own tile. I think of that as the city's own and primary cultivation. Anything that would come in from Earth (and they have to send cargo ships anyway for getting He³ and presumely other ores) would be types of food the colony was not yet able to cultivate.

We should severly restric food imports from earth. (perhaps a single early national wonder would allow it?)
He3 should generate Money.
We could replace the food imports from earth mechanic with an imigration mechanic.
Something like this:
No improved tiles (or very few, just food resources have 3 food) produce more than two food during the time before isolation, but exactly two food is easy to achieve. This is so your citys don't grow much, but new population will be usefull and not starve.
Write a python script that generates imigrants to your citys (new population) based on the amount of He3 you control. People want to imigrate to rich colonys, right? Only add free population intermitantly, and only as long as happiness and health allow.

After Isolation there would be improved terrain improvements that allow more food to be generated, so specialists and field workiers generating no food will be feasable.

I agree mostly, and this is the point (migration events) where the mod was when it became buggy and later on abandonned by the coders.
The problem is we don't have expert coders atm (afaik) working on the mod.
 
Another problem is that we're (At least I am) guilty of is mixing the future versions of this mod and this one.

How much depth do we want to go into with the vanilla version? I agree that this all needs to be changed for the BtS version so do we tinker here or leave it as is and address it later?
 
Think of how long the ISS is orbiting Earth already and still there's no hydroponics bay in it. ;)
Also, every city has a 2 food output on its own tile. I think of that as the city's own and primary cultivation. Anything that would come in from Earth (and they have to send cargo ships anyway for getting He³ and presumely other ores) would be types of food the colony was not yet able to cultivate.
Also think about how few people are on the ISS to feed, and how much easyer it is to get to low earth orbit than to the moon.
He3 would be so valuable because it is so small. Just a few ships a year would be needed to transport the entire production of it back to earth.
I don't think that any common ores(iron, aluminum, copper) would be sent back home, just used on the moon to replace imported materials. Uranium and Plutonium might be valuable enough in weapons to validate the expence.
I agree mostly, and this is the point (migration events) where the mod was when it became buggy and later on abandonned by the coders.
The problem is we don't have expert coders atm (afaik) working on the mod.
Fear of failure is no reason to not try. We may not have any experts, but some here are proficient enough to give it a shot.
Do we want such code? I can attempt to write it.
 
Another problem is that we're (At least I am) guilty of is mixing the future versions of this mod and this one.

How much depth do we want to go into with the vanilla version? I agree that this all needs to be changed for the BtS version so do we tinker here or leave it as is and address it later?

I would say we should keep tinkering untill BtS is just a couple weeks away. The more practice we get changing things that are difficult now, the farther we will be when we get to start the BtS version.
 
I think we were also planning on immigration of citizens to help out instead of population actually growing. But the rate of immigration needs to be dependent on exporting of valuable resources or else why would anyone invest time/money to ship up more people?

These are issues Belizan and matthewv were dealing with when everything went crapola. Maybe Geo remembers more of it then I do, but I was just XML-ing away back then.

And I agree we should keep tinkering, but also keep track of every idea for down the road.
 
Also think about how few people are on the ISS to feed, and how much easyer it is to get to low earth orbit than to the moon.

I knew you would bring this up, and infact you're dead wrong here.
Lifting cargo in Earth orbit makes up almost (about 90% I reckon) all the fuel of an Earth-moon-Earth trip. So the extra expense to boost a ship towards the moon is negligable compared to just lift it in low orbit.

He3 would be so valuable because it is so small. Just a few ships a year would be needed to transport the entire production of it back to earth.

True that, it only depends on how accurate current predictions are of the amount of He³ needed to fuel fusion reactors. My last check on this issue learned me there's quite a difference of opinion there.

I don't think that any common ores(iron, aluminum, copper) would be sent back home, just used on the moon to replace imported materials. Uranium and Plutonium might be valuable enough in weapons to validate the expence.

Not to Earth itself, no. But Earth orbit would be a greedy market of any metals brought in from the moon. It would still be way cheaper then lifting those same metals from the gravity pit that Earth is.

Fear of failure is no reason to not try. We may not have any experts, but some here are proficient enough to give it a shot.
Do we want such code? I can attempt to write it.

If you feel up to it, I'm all for trying.
But please let us first determine more exactly how/what we want with migration and supplies from Earth.
 
I knew you would bring this up, and infact you're dead wrong here.
Lifting cargo in Earth orbit makes up almost (about 90% I reckon) all the fuel of an Earth-moon-Earth trip. So the extra expense to boost a ship towards the moon is negligable compared to just lift it in low orbit.
It may only take 10% of the fuel, but how much more fuel had to be used on liftoff to get that extra 10% into orbit with the craft? How much bigger was the Saturn 5 (apollo) rocket than the space shuttle?
True that, it only depends on how accurate current predictions are of the amount of He³ needed to fuel fusion reactors. My last check on this issue learned me there's quite a difference of opinion there.
here we have the advantage of the writer; we don't know how it will work, so we can pick how we want it to work for the game to play well.
Not to Earth itself, no. But Earth orbit would be a greedy market of any metals brought in from the moon. It would still be way cheaper then lifting those same metals from the gravity pit that Earth is.

If you feel up to it, I'm all for trying.
But please let us first determine more exactly how/what we want with migration and supplies from Earth.

determine away, i wouldn't want to spent the time coding something that isn't wanted.
 
It may only take 10% of the fuel, but how much more fuel had to be used on liftoff to get that extra 10% into orbit with the craft? How much bigger was the Saturn 5 (apollo) rocket than the space shuttle?

I'm sorry, but that's simply a dead-end logic. Why bother going into orbit in the first place? (humans then I mean)

Besides, I can imagine that in the time our mod plays, there's a piece-by-piece method of delivering stuff/people in orbit and on the moon.
Shuttles and/or ramjets bring people and supplies in Earth orbit to a station or such.
Space-build cargoships transfer this to the moon.

This is supposed to be a cheaper method since there's no need for an all-in-one return package.
 
What about cheap nutritional powdery drinks? They'd be cheap to send!
 
If we are down to discussing such details about theoretical logistics abilitys, I would say we can decide to make it any way we want to.
Base the descision on optimizing desired gameplay, and reality can just bend a little bit to accomidate.

One reason for sugesting that terrain and improvements be used to generate the food quickly is that it would be much more easily understood by the AI than the other ways that have been tryed or proposed.
 
Okay, my suggestion:

Let the colony start with an almost full box of food, but don't let the base plot produce food on its own. The population of course will start to decrease.

The map python ensures there's He³ near the starting location, so once that is linked up for every x amount of He³ collected by the base an x amount of cargo can come in. Whether it be food, engineers, colonists, a scout rover, or even hammers, is up to the player. In the beginning the player will of course need to choose food, until he finishes a facility that produces food in the colony site so he starts to break even and can request other stuff then food.

But the problem again here is the AI.
 
Radical idea, SDK, not likely to be implimentable in this version of SotM:

What if we added another trade slider?
You could spend your trade on Science, Gold, Culture or Food.
The slider would be disabled at isolation.
He3 would generate trade, and thus if desired could become food.
 
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