1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

football thread No11

Discussion in 'Sports Talk' started by Carras Dad, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. Lambert Simnel

    Lambert Simnel One across

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    5,117
    Location:
    Winterhold
    Actually, I don't buy it.

    I also don't accept Mise's "Very dangerous play" view. That's just a post match Anyone But United view precluding a normally quite reasonable view. Mise would probably admit as much after he's thought about it.

    It was a solid yellow card. The ref got it wrong, perhaps because of the perspective/viewpoint he had, perhaps just because he was overwhelmed by the occasion. But Man U aren't the first club to get an incorrect decision against them. Given the dynamics of the teams, the decision probably decided the game - United were only just holding on defensively against Real's possession football (and when did Mourinho start playing possession football?), and they were never going to hold on 11 vs 10.

    But if there was a conspiracy, then the ref could have given a penalty and a red card when the ball came off Rafael's shoulder. He could have allowed Higuain's goal. This isn't like the Dundee United vs Roma game from the 80s, when you had to be blind not to think it likely there was something crooked going on.

    The worst bit was it was a genuinely enthralling game of football at 1-0; the odds with Man U, but not by much. The decision ruined that - just as much as if the ref had sent off Diego Lopez for his two-fisted punch on Vidic in the first half (and can someone tell me why goalkeepers are regularly allowed to get away with a misjudgement on someone's head when punching, when a similar misjudgement on their legs would provoke a penalty?). Personally, I was really enjoying the drama of the game, and then the ref took centre stage.

    The thought that refs and UEFA and FIFA are all in favour of big nations and clubs except England and English clubs - is a bit paranoid, honestly. There's probably some bias towards bigger countries and clubs. There's almost certainly still some corruption. But it's most likely a form of selection bias. English fans don't remember the Spanish goal wrongly ruled offside in the '96 Euros. Scottish fans don't tend to remember qualifying for the WC through a penalty awarded for the ball hitting Joe Jordan's arm in the Welsh penalty area. You get the idea - it's easy to pick out the times that your team has been wronged.

    I am pissed off about the decision, and (if I'm honest) it's ruined the season for me. But that's what happens when a key decision goes against your team. It doesn't mean that it was completely asinine or inconceivable as a decision, nor that There Must Be A Plot!!! It's just that on this occasion the ref wasn't up to the mark, got it wrong, and that was the deciding factor in a very close tie.
     
  2. Mise

    Mise isle of lucy

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    28,601
    Location:
    London, UK
    That's not true, I was obviously supporting Man Utd in that match... (Why the hell would I support Real Madrid over a British team?!) In the ITV post match analysis, it was Roy Keane who was the most vociferous in calling it a red card, while Southgate said it should have been yellow. One of my friends, who's not only a Man Utd fan, but also a Barcelona fan after having worked in Madrid for 3 years, said it was a definite red too. I don't think being a Man Utd fan precludes a reasonable view. It was dangerous -- he flew in at speed with his studs in the air at face level -- and it could easily have ended much worse.
     
  3. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    22,877
    Location:
    Melbourne, AUS Reputation:131^(9/2)
    IMO, no matter whether the ref called it a yellow or a red, it was the right decision. It was unlucky for Man U that this ref decided it was worthy of a red, but they weren't harshly done by. It was still a fair call.
     
  4. Lambert Simnel

    Lambert Simnel One across

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    5,117
    Location:
    Winterhold
    Keane is a complete twonk who revels in being contrary.
     
  5. BirraImperial

    BirraImperial Pura Vida!

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    4,306
    Location:
    San Jose, Costa Rica #fiftychat
    I don't know. Nani was looking to control the ball when he hit Arbeloa. His eyes were on the ball, until it was too late to react. It's a yellow card for me. The ref was probably impressed by the harshness of the faul.
     
  6. Mise

    Mise isle of lucy

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2004
    Messages:
    28,601
    Location:
    London, UK
    I agree that Nani didn't do it deliberately and was making a genuine, good faith attempt to get the ball. However, the rules don't require any malicious intent at all, so it doesn't matter if Nani knew whether his play was dangerous. All that matters is the fact of whether his play was dangerous or not. It's not like hand ball, which explicitly requires the player to deliberately use his hand. All that matters is whether the play was dangerous in fact. And if you look at the play, removing intentions and what Nani saw and so on and just look at the facts of what happened, he flew in at speed with his studs at face level. That's dangerous play.

    Sent from a phone, apols for any mistakes.
     
  7. Carras Dad

    Carras Dad Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    481
    it wasnt a malicious foul, definitely not. it was however reckless and stupidly dangerous. very dangerous.

    the red card can be justified, although 7/10 times it will be yellow.
     
  8. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Messages:
    14,106
    Location:
    -
    Reminds me of that De Jong charge during the WC final.
     
  9. Carras Dad

    Carras Dad Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    481
    well, that was a red 9/10 times.
     
  10. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    33,262
    Location:
    Perth,Western Australia
    You seriously cannot compare the Nani foul with the De Jong one.
     
  11. Dell19

    Dell19 Take a break

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2000
    Messages:
    16,231
    Location:
    London
    When it happened I thought Nani dropped to the floor because he knew what might be coming and I think Carras is right that it was a red about 30% of the time.

    You can compare Nani's challenge to De Jong's but they are not equal.
     
  12. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2002
    Messages:
    9,019
    Location:
    Transtavia
    If I am wrong, it is not because of the ' Must Be A Plot' strawman. You don't need a 'Plot' or a 'Conspiracy' to explain why lions everywhere go after zebras or other grazing animals. They do it acting collectively in their own interest according to instinct, even though they each do so as individuals. Similarly naturalism is a more powerful and reliable way to explain most human behaviour than taking people at their word (the 'common sense' approach). If you ask someone why they did something, they will almost always justify it in relation to some ideological system and as a 'right' action within such a system (but rarely will this actually explain actions coherently).

    You're mixing some different ideas here however. I don't think Man Utd are a themselves much of a victim of this. I think the English national team is not liked in officialdom, but I don't really think the club sides always share such a disadvantage. Chelsea got ref hate for a while because of their use of money, but Man City have that rep now and UEFA are trying to change the rules this time. I think Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Bayern Munich and other well connected teams get help from referees, teams from larger countries have advantages over smaller ones with weaker political connections, and I think teams from certain footballing cultures are disadvantaged. So if a big English team plays Real or Barca, you're gonna be up against it. If you play Dynamo Kiev or Brondby, you're probably gonna find those reds cards and penalties going the other way. Of course you aren't going to learn that in one game. One game would never tell you anything in itself. It's about taking lots of games and assessing the bigger picture.

    I don't really care about England or English teams, so it's not paranoia. I care about Scottish teams however, but I know officialdom doesn't dislike us (it doesn't respect us, but that's a bit different). As far as I know, we got screwed against the Czechs because the Czechs cheated a bad referee. That said, Scotland haven't got their fair share of decisions in years according to me, not really sure why and I admit I am a bit paranoid about that. Last big piece of luck we had was in 1996 when our defender saved a goal on the line against Netherlands in Euro 96 and got away with it.

    But Celtic have had plenty of referee presents this year, from the dodgy Helsingborgs goal to the red card against Moscow that allowed Celtic to screw a more deserving Benfica team out of qualification. Our club teams only get it bad when we go up against big teams from Spain, Italy, Germany, France and England ... and that is the common lot of all teams from small countries and doesn't matter all that much because they're much better anyway! :D
     
  13. Carras Dad

    Carras Dad Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    481
    sorry pangur, but your post oozes of selection bias.
    seriously, try to follow a second country's football, its media and its supporter's opinions.

    you will find they all sing the same tune about different actors.
     
  14. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2002
    Messages:
    9,019
    Location:
    Transtavia
    Since you have know idea how many leagues I follow, you don't know what you are talking about here. But you are welcome to respond to any point or argument I make.
     
  15. Carras Dad

    Carras Dad Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    481
    all you presented was ancdotes and your opinion. i mean i could say "no it aint so" and then you could say "yes it is", but what's the point?
     
  16. Quackers

    Quackers The Frog

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2008
    Messages:
    10,282
    Location:
    Great Britain
    i basically agree with Pangur. What do you object too, Carra? And why?
     
  17. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2002
    Messages:
    9,019
    Location:
    Transtavia
    Please don't waste both our times Carras. :) You obviously think there's a point since you responded with precisely the kind of argument you're objecting to. And you haven't actually specified any objection, just given some vague indication that you don't like what I've said. Since you are so keen in responding but don't know where to start, what about the naturalist argument relating to the structure of footballing organizations (see my post at the end of the last page too for evidence).
     
  18. Carras Dad

    Carras Dad Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    481
    what i object to is the notion that scottish clubs somehow are disadvantaged by uefa.

    i've heard that argument from supporters of austrian clubs, for crying out loud, and all i can say is: uefa doesnt care enough about you to disadvantage you.
     
  19. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2002
    Messages:
    9,019
    Location:
    Transtavia
    What did I just say above about Scottish clubs?
     
  20. Carras Dad

    Carras Dad Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    481
    that thexy havent got their fair share of decisions.
     

Share This Page