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FOR LIBERTY - Ron Paul 2012

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cryptic_Snow, Nov 12, 2011.

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  1. Cryptic_Snow

    Cryptic_Snow Prince

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    One more point about Gravel and Kucinich, I admire principled people. Does anyone here doubt the level of political discourse in this country would improve a hundred fold if people like Gravel and Kucinich represented democrats and people like Ron Paul represented Republicans? Gone would be the partisan blue team vs. red team garbage. Principled opposition would be the standard of the day. They would convene and find out where they could stand together on issues and even in areas of disagreement there could be a healthy philosophical debate, without any vitriol.
     
  2. Cryptic_Snow

    Cryptic_Snow Prince

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    This implies you have seen the film and reviewed it, please post the link to those comments, I'm interested in your opinion of it.
     
  3. useless

    useless Social Justice Rogue

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    Can't you make your own arguments, without relying on long-winded, clearly biased videos?
     
  4. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Uh, I don't know why you're so sure that there would be "healthy philosophical debate" with no vitriol. Have you seen the honest libertarians here in action? Just look through the thread.
     
  5. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    It actually implies I haven't viewed the video as I already know enough about Paul to not waste another 40 minutes of my life. Now, if you can prove that you have watched the video by giving us a written summary and why you think that there is something in it worthy of discussion, perhaps you will get discussion. Over the years, it has been a mystery to me why many Ron Paul fans are unable or unwilling to write for themselves and instead, link to long-winded videos.
     
  6. Zack

    Zack 99% hot gas

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    That doesn't prove anything. Plenty of the people who passed on watching the hour-long documentary have watched all of the Republican debates.
     
  7. Miles Teg

    Miles Teg Nuclear Powered Mentat

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    *Raises hand*

    The "partisan blue team vs red team garbage" has been with us since Jefferson, and it hasn't brought down the republic yet. I spit on the idea that it's even possible to take the politics out of democracy.

    Also, love the idea that man who calls himself Dr. No would end partisan gridlock if only he had a chance. Strong ideological principles and a talent for compromise are traits rarely found in the same person. Ron Paul and Kucinich sure as hell aren't that kind of person, and I'm pretty sure Gravel is in the same boat. (Incidentally. this is one of the reasons that Ted Kennedy's death was too soon, even at 77)
     
  8. Neonanocyborgasm

    Neonanocyborgasm Deity

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    tl;dr. And also seemed strawmanish.

    "Fiscal responsibility" is a buzzword that the right-wingers like to cite to appeal to ignorant voters. It is based on the false premise that national budgets have to obey the same laws of finance as personal budgets. It is based on deliberate ignorance of Keynesian deficit spending to reverse recessions, and also seems to ignore the very notion of lending as an engine of capitalism itself.

    As for his foreign policy, it can be summed up as a retreat into isolationism.
     
  9. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    That's true most of the time, but not always. When states use a monetary unit they can't control, like the Euro or a currency on the Gold standard, microeconomic rules become more applicable to national budgets than otherwise.
     
  10. Winston Hughes

    Winston Hughes Wrathful Warlock Retired Moderator

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    Vote Ron Paul for destitution and misery? :hmm:
     
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Actually I don't believe that you've watched that video either, since you're clearly unable to formulate its central points for yourself.
     
  12. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Pretty much. That's where his economic policy would lead us.

    Capitalists insisted on the creation of a central bank for a reason. It was necessary for the preservation of capitalism. You can't have a modern economy without it. And you can't have a prosperous modern economy without one that functions reasonably well.

    Paul's ignorance of even the core concepts of monetary theory are scary. What's even scarier is that so few other people know the core concepts. But at least most of the people who don't are content to leave it to the adults to deal with.
     
  13. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Wow. In response to:
    Amadeus, I recognize there is debate to be had with the level of taxation and size of government, but realise that you don't want to abolish Government (if I remember correctly) but still want them around for core activities. That means you'd still have to pay taxes, that means the overdramatic man with the overdramatic gun still is taking your overdramatic wallet.

    So, lets cut out the emotional ramblings and all the crap about meaningless (yes, meaningless) rhetorically driven terms like: I can haz more Freedom/Liberty.

    By the way, in your core activities I remember law enforcement being one of them, so you are still in favour of paying the man with the gun.
     
  14. Neonanocyborgasm

    Neonanocyborgasm Deity

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    And that is why no one uses the gold standard anymore. It's impossible to engage in any meaningful monetary or even fiscal policy with a fixed standard. What's more is that the choice of standard is purely arbitrary, thereby causing a government to shoot itself in its own foot by its own choices. Gold has far less practical value than it actually costs, as it is, after all, just some shiny metal. Why not use silver, or diamond, or platinum, or uranium as a standard? They are all rare substances.

    As for the Euro, that is an aberration, as it is an unnatural decoupling of monetary from fiscal control. That is a problem the EU will have to deal with.
     
  15. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    The thing with the Euro has been a policy of "it'll be alright" with regard to regulation. And it was, during the good times.

    Mistake all politics make. Too focussed on the short term.
     
  16. Dean.

    Dean. Chieftain

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    This isn't quite right. The choice of standard metal currency has historically been linked to whatever precious metal the nation has large reserves of. Eventually, most nations started using more than one metal (gold and silver were usually present everywhere as currency).

    But the manipulation of currency (and then asset values) by transferring these reserves between different central banks has been an effective monetary strategy, though it is very limited (and subject to external manipulation) when compared to fiat currency.

    The reason that the US left the gold standard under Nixon was precisely because of this (foreign) manipulation of US currency values.


    There are a lot of problems that go into the Euro crisis; inconsistent tax and spending regimes across the zone, as well as different rates of growth and net shifts in asset values are all major reasons why a homogeneous currency in a heterogeneous trade union is so destabilizing.
     
  17. amadeus

    amadeus As seen on OT

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    I don't want them around for core activities, either. I understand that it isn't going to happen, at least in my lifetime, so I separate my real political activities (who I vote for, etc.) versus what I believe as to what would be the most moral system. I've said numerous times I'd rather get 90% of what I want with one candidate rather than 0% with the existing power elite.

    It isn't overdramatic. Why are you denying the very real consequences of refusing to pay taxes? They reserve the privilege to kill you if you try and resist. This isn't hyperbole, it's fact.

    So was it meaningless for the people in the Soviet Union? Is it meaningless for people in Syria? Is it meaningless for people persecuted under anti-drug and anti-prostitution laws? I guess they should all just shut up and follow orders like all good slaves.
     
  18. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    You confuse the 19th century gold standard with Bretton Woods: In truth, the Bretton Woods gold standard was hardly comparable to the gold standard most 19th century countries adhered to. In the 19th century, money was some kind of redeeming coupon for gold: You could go to the bank and redeem $1 for 1 gram of gold or vice versa.
    Bretton Woods was different: The US government placed a price control on gold of $30 per ounce and the FED would change interest rates depending on the availability gold.
    In the classical gold standard, $1 - for all intents and purposes - represented a piece of gold whereas the Bretton Woods system was a price control on gold with the central bank trying to keep the market price of gold in sync to the government mandated price.

    These differences can be best made clear when you take a look back at the late 1960s and early 1970s, when the US government printed massive amounts of US Dollars in order to fund the Vietnam war, which shook up the balance, and forced countries like Germany to pay for the Vietnam war by increasing interest rates to maintain the parity with the US Dollar.
    Understandably, countries gave up their peg to the US Dollar, which meant the US Dollar became dangerously overvalued compared to gold and therefore, vulnerable to speculative attacks.
    In a classical gold standard, such scenario would be simply impossible, as money could never be overvalued to gold as it was... well, gold.
     
  19. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    My mistake, I remembered wrong.

    Not even military?
    Maybe they have different customs in different countries, but a man comes by your house, puts a gun to your head and actually takes your wallet? I didn't realise. In the Nertherlands you can keep your wallet and they only take a percentage. I've never had a gun held to my head either.

    Sorry for accusing you of being over-dramatic.
    Yes. That's the point I'm making exactly.

    Admin/Moderators
    Dear whomever conducted the the survey, this is a prime example of what I called conversation killing. And it's why you can introduce as many Red Diamonds, Blue Squares or Green Octagons as you like, but you'll never get rid of this.
     
  20. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    So you uphold the right of workers to occupy workplaces unmolested? :mischief:
     
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