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FOR LIBERTY - Ron Paul 2012

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cryptic_Snow, Nov 12, 2011.

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  1. useless

    useless Social Justice Rogue

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    It's not so much that he supports LGBT laws, in that he supports the state's right to restrict civil rights to LGBTers.

    He's socially conservative.
     
  2. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    What's a "bureaucratic republic", exactly? Are we talking post-war Britain or Soviet-era Russia?

    Yeah, I've never understood how people manage to interpret a solid defence of local-level oppression as somehow equivalent to support for nation-level liberation. It's like claiming that somebody kicking you in the shins is non-violent because they haven't punched you in the face. :confused:
     
  3. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    It's kind of like saying that slavery should be something decided upon by the states. We had to fight a war over that one and these people still don't get the message.
     
  4. useless

    useless Social Justice Rogue

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    I still don't get why people actually believe Paul is for liberty, when it's clear so far that he wants to take America back to a time in which Gays, Women, Atheist, Blacks and other minorities "Knew their place" and who supports the state when it comes to local-level oppression (as Traitorfish alluded to above me).
     
  5. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    The bottomline cause of the current crisis is simple: The banks were too large. Should they fail, which - as we all know - happened, even those who weren't responsible would feel the impact. So it is Wall Street's fault in some way. But ultimately, this primarily poor policymaking.
    Government had the power to prevent this, but didn't utilise it: Small-sized banking was overregulated, while big-sized banks were underregulated and were allowed to become one with risk-taking investment banks. So the solution is simple: Hands-off to small-sized banking, reinstitute Glass-Steagal and demand full reserve capital requirements to banks reaching a certain amount of equity, enticing too large banks to breakup.
     
  6. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    You're wrong. The banks are secondary to Wall St as the cause of the crisis. And the government is tertiary to the banks. And it isn't even the size of the banks so much as the size of the investment banks, which are a different animal.

    The government only deregulated because Wall St and the banks talked the government into doing it. The blame belongs on Wall St.
     
  7. Atlas14

    Atlas14 "Sophomoric Troll Master"

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    How can Wall St. be the primary blame as opposed to simply part of the blame? I understand why Wall St. is to blame, but how can the govt. be talked into doing things it knows is not ethical and healthy for any economy?

    That's like blaming the real estate agents but not the ill-equipped home buyers for the housing crisis. They're both at fault, both knew what they were doing was wrong. The banks were in on it too.

    If you had stopped with claiming Paul is a loon for placing primary blame on the Fed., I'd see your point. But you seem to be taking the opposite extreme.
     
  8. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    You can be a primary blame and still part of the blame. The two are not mutually exclusive, first of all...

    And if the real-estate agents lie and coerce the home buyers, how can you say they're both at fault? If one knows exactly what they're doing and the other is, by comparison, hapless, it's not so black-and-white anymore.

    There's a reason why we can't enslave people under contract. Because it's so easy to deceive them.
     
  9. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    That doesn't work. Wall St is primarily to blame for several reasons. 1)Wall St spent 40 years doing everything in could to talk the government into allowing it. You are assuming that government cannot be influenced or bought. Well if you put enough time and money into it, government can be influenced and bought. And that is what happened.

    As for the home buyers v the mortgage sellers, that is actually very much the same story as Wall St and the government. You had one side working to commit fraud, and the other side falling for the fraud. Now some people more or less wanted to fall for the fraud. Others were just overwhelmed by the conmen's arguments.

    Should everyone, public officials and private actors, be alert for fraud and not fall for it? Sure. It's not going to happen, though. There has always been successful fraud. And there always will be.

    The government let itself fall for fraud. It was given a lot of incentive to do so. And it was a huge and elaborate fraud.

    But the primary responsibility rests with the one committing fraud, not the one falling for it.
     
  10. Atlas14

    Atlas14 "Sophomoric Troll Master"

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    Thanks to you both for the explanations, I appreciate it. :cool: Just one more question set for now: Do you believe Paul is placing primary blame on the government because that's the easiest of the culprits to be held accountable and somebody needs to be held accountable? Even if not so, isn't that a reasonable approach to a problem as large as this?

    I guess what I haven't been following entirely about Paul's claims throughout his campaign is whether he is entirely dismissing Wall St. as a problem or if he is simply placing them below the government on his level of blame.
     
  11. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    Personally, I think Paul is just an ideologue. Ideology says one thing, facts say another. Paul isn't the kind of guy who would let facts interfere with ideology. Paul has spent at least half his adult life pushing a certain belief system. He has locked himself into it, and can't see his way past it.
     
  12. Tani Coyote

    Tani Coyote Canis Latranscendental

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    To be blunt, I'd like a leader with an actual spine. Obama doesn't have one; the only areas he's had any victories have, overwhelmingly been in gay rights. Otherwise, he's a puppet of the GOP.

    That and logically I have self-interest in a candidate who's for lower taxation. :dunno:

    I'd much rather states' rights on the issue than a national ban, which is very possible.

    I take what I can get.

    At least under states' rights, some states can have pro-gay laws, and one can move between states depending on what's important.

    DOMA is definitely an unconstitutional piece of garbage, either way. Contracts in one state MUST be recognised in another, end of; you can't change that with an ordinary law.
     
  13. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    I'd say Obama has had his share of victories abroad. At home, his efforts for gay rights should be considered a huge boon, and despite the massive amount of garbage political discourse he keeps his cool. I've never seen another liberal candidate smack down regressive talking points with so much verve and class.

    I hope you realize that by lowering taxes now you will be shouldering an insane burden in the future. Obama has already lowered taxes for the bottom 95% of Americans, the only group he (and the Democrats) have an interest in taxing more heavily is the highest incomes.

    The problem is that the Democrats believe in liberty and free and open discourse, so they try not to shut most of the country out of the lawmaking process. Naive on their part, to be sure, but you can show your support by smacking down the Republicans that continually attempt to arrest progress.

    Your self-interest should guide you towards Obama as he is trying to get you free healthcare, education, out of a war, and in an economically stable place, all things that Republicans have proven unable to do. And Ron Paul's economic ideas are so dinosauric that they will do nothing except exacerbate the financial system we're in right now.

    Keynesian economics isn't "broken," and if you really want to try Austrian, I guess you can vote for Ron Paul. My only regret will be not being able to see the look of disappointment on your face when the economy stagnates horribly and economic growth grinds to the lowest its been in 80 years.

    EDIT: Also Ron Paul does not give a crap about your personal liberty.
     
  14. Cryptic_Snow

    Cryptic_Snow Chieftain

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    Can you produce a video of Ron Paul inciting a "race war"? There's about a million youtube videos of the guy so produce one right now or kindly STFU with your slanderous propaganda.

    His foreign policy stems from intelligence from the DOD and the CIA. Get a clue.


    Link to video.

    Do you know the American history of the gold vs. paper money? No of course not. Allow me to educate your ignorance.


    Link to video.

    Then why are you even commenting on American politics? I don't appreciate slander and lies from abroad. Clean up the mess in your own country before sticking your nose in ours.

    Moderator Action: Merged four comments, which all contain trolling.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  15. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    How many different countries does America have troops stationed in right now, exactly? I know it's quite a few, certainly double digits. Perhaps you could dig up the numbers, and then we'll take another look at this "mind your own business" approach to international politics discussion.
     
  16. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Shush Mr. Fish. Let me bask in the hypocrisy for a while.

    Dear Cryptic Snow, does having an unemployment of just over half of your country qualify me to be allowed to criticize American Politics? If not, could you please provide me with the minimal requirements?

    Ta vary much :)

    *snicker*Slander and lies from a broad*snicker*
     
  17. Cutlass

    Cutlass The Man Who Wasn't There.

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    So we're not allowed to have sound money because some of the FF didn't understand economics and other aspects of economics have changed? :crazyeye:
     
  18. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Chieftain

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    Only Russian Nationalists are allowed to use this argument :mad:
     
  19. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    The important word being 'intelligence'. While I am all for military disengagement, Ron Paul's view of complete disengagement is perhaps the worst foreign policy our country could pursue. Avoid military entaglements, but stay involved in world affairs through peacekeeping, aid, and international cooperation.
     
  20. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    That's my main issue with the guy. He bases every single thing he says on his ideology, no matter what. That's a pretty dangerous thing, being fanatical about *any* ideology
     
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