For the love of Science!!!!

[lRooks]

Hey all, new member here. I am a new Civ player, not just Civ 5, and I am struggling a little bit. I have been playing on Emporer difficulty, Pangea, 8 civ/16 CS, Standard. I am trying for a science victory and am struggling just a little to say the least. I will say up front that turning down the difficulty is not an option. I have been trying to follow the 4 city tradition opening and my games have really gone two routes so far: either I fall to an early or late military attack. This being said, it isn't a steam-roll situation. These are usually 50-80 turn wars of attrition that I eventually fall behind whilst trying to maintain tech and military. I do not prioritize growth after about city size 5 and for this reason I have been comfortable spending a few turns in unhappiness if my production is maintained. So I will try to slim this down and only ask a few, pointed questions:

1. What military units should I prioritize for defense while I am teching (after Composite bowmen)?

2. How am I supposed to prioritize tech advancement/buildings while still maintaining an adequate military?

3. For the love of science, how do you keep the runaway civ (who ALWAYS spawns right next to me) from DoW'ing you? This usually happens around turn 125 for me and never ends. Sometimes another civ joins in. PLEASE HELP!

4. Not a question: Please feel free to give general advice as well as to what works for you, etc. Like I said, I am new so this is frustrating

Thanks!

 

[joncnunn]

1. Upgrading Composites to Crossbows is the next step up in defense.

2. Priority to Education, build Universities, and fill those science slots.

3. I wouldn't worry about being DOWed upon. Just count on it and have the ranged units. To avoid a war of attrition, use ranged units to kill an enemy unit per turn and keep your units in safe tiles.

4. Cash rushing walls if your intending a kill zone within 2 hexes of it are really effective now that the latest patch fixed the save/load bug.

 

[lRooks]

I was able to get to crossbow/universities qithout difficulty. I guess I am questioning what to from that point onward. Specific wonders/tech that i should be shooting for? Specific amount/type of military I should aim for?

 

[Arakos4242]

you are going to need all of the tech researched anyway, but shooting for scientific theory is good for the public school building. If you have cities adjacent to mountains, astronomy is good for the observatory. The porcelain tower is a good wonder to shoot for, and the Hubble Space Telescope, though very late in the game, is also helpful for rushing techs with GS (you get two of them from Hubble)

 

[joncnunn]

I was able to get to crossbow/universities qithout difficulty. I guess I am questioning what to from that point onward. Specific wonders/tech that i should be shooting for? Specific amount/type of military I should aim for?

Crossbow remains the best defense unit for quite some time; its not until Gatling Guns that a replacement is available.
The next science building after University is Public school which is also a ways off. (If playing builder; then Banking would be the next tech; cash is very useful)

If your interested in taking the war into enemy territory after killing them then there are a lot of techs you can go for after Education:
Basically it's offensive units that get improved; (the foot soldiers improve from Longswords to Muskets to Rifles; the mobile forces get a major improvement from Knights to Calvary; the siege weapons get to Cannons and later Artillery)
And its about this time that Naval combat starts to come into play; its best to pre-build Frigates as the first naval ranged unit and then upgrade them with Navigation and also you want to have some coastal city with a barracks & armory so you can build Privatters that start with Coastal Raider III.

As to wonders: You may have a shot at manually building Petra if you have a decent city, but its a bit late to start it if you already have Education. Next one I can think of worth attempting to build manually is Leaning Tower of Pisa; which is quite a ways off from Education. (The typical rule of thumb is if you get a GE, build a wonder but otherwise save your hammers for something else.)

Also the wonders that require you to be within 2 tiles of a mountain have less competion; the increased trade route is best for empires with a lot of cities such as a puppet empire.

 

[lRooks]

Thanks for the help jon. I will try to incorporate those things. The frustrating part is that I feel that I am already doing what is being said here. Perhaps I am doing something else that is working against me? Given that I am going straight science (trying to get my first Civ victory ever mind you), should I be building water mills, banks, markets, barracks, etc.? I try to avoid anything that doesn't benefit +gold/+science/+GScientist. I always feel that I am either behind or maybe 1-2 turns ahead in military tech rather than 10-20 which would make defense/offense much easier.

 

[Zaimejs]

What really helps me is friending or allying with a militaristic city state. Those units that I get every now and then really add up and make for a nice militia. Today I was playing a game where I was alone on a continent with three military city states. I ended up with the pointiest sticks after only building 2-3 units on my own.

 

[Juanholio]

should I be building water mills, banks, markets, barracks, etc.? I try to avoid anything that doesn't benefit +gold/+science/+GScientist.

I would say yes. Often on Emp I find there's enough time to build a variety of buildings in my cities. Some I specialise a bit but there can be so much benefit from certain buildings and related national wonders. E.g. Even on science victory I will persue cultural buildings and get the hermitage in my best (usually capital) cultural city. This will help you get SPs which will give you lots of bonuses to this end - (I ususally go liberty and plant a free GS with the finisher). You can do this enroute to Porcelain Tower and Public Schools.

Also markets, banks and stock exchanges stack. If you have a river city with a bunch of plantations/mined luxs you can make an awful lot of gold. You can then use this gold to help out less productive city by buying certain buildings. Sell your excess luxuries as often as possible (240g/177g 2gpt/114g 4gpt/83g 5gpt...).

I find it useful to keep a reserve to buy walls/comp bows early for a weaker city. I also found cities on hills where possible. You get the same food as on plains/grassland but you get an extra hammer which is useful early. Plus the city gets a defensive bonus too. If you're considered weak the AI will attack so some good ranged units and walls are often all you need to fight a much superior army. Often in the early game when you've killed most of the enemy attack and strengthened a bit you'll get a very favourable settlement.

Early growth is really key so I would say granaries and water mills (when available) are essential. More pop (even if going 'wide') will help you with production gold and science (libraries etc.). You will need to be a little careful with happiness as prolonged unhappiness can stagnate your growth and you'll get behind in science. When warring keep this in mind and go for cities with luxuries you don't have. Consider razing cities you don't need. If you found a religion choose happiness based bonuses and you can take a lot of cities and still be in +happiness.

Try to get National College as soon as you can and you should notice a real boost. If you can settle your capital or other strong science city adjacent to a mountain (or 'mountain' type natural wonder) the observatory will add another +50%

A gambit which often works on Emperor is to go for the Great Library (Pottery > Writing) Then choose Philosophy as the free tech (research Calendar before completion) and start the National College. About this time you'll have a settler (bought or from Liberty) hold of planting it until you can afford to buy a library (so not to interrupt NC). Then place your next cities.

Hope this helps

 

[zyx]

If you have negative gold per turn, your science output decreases, so don`t build too many units. If you are only having 4x 5 pop cities your science output may be too little. If you have only 4 cities let them grow to at least 15 pop, because library and public school provide science per 2 pop. Each city should provide a new luxury to your empire ( capital 2 ), build the National Collage as soon as possible. Only then will you be able to keep up in science. Once you are the tech leader, you don`t need that many troups as they are better.
If you choose tradition: opener, legalism, landed elite: your capital should grow rapidly - build hanging gardens or temple of artemis.

Don`'t forget to puppet some cities! Capitals prefered!

 

[lRooks]

Well, that definitely sounds like solid advice! The problem I've been having I guess is that I prioritize military early and then its turn 80-100 and I feel so far behind with buildings: granary, shrines, water mills. I hold off the early attacks easily but feel behind because of my CB's. For example, last game I lost: I was next to Germany who attacked early and I won easily with my 5-6 CB's and lost maybe 1 unit if any. But trying to counter attack to possibly puppett a city gets smashed and all I've managed to do is just weaken myself for other invasions. I've seen talk that it's common to counter-attack at this point and come away with a puppetted city or at least a favorable peace agreement but I find it VERY difficult to make any progress offensively with only CBs!

 

[Matthew.]

The AI will start really boosting military strength at around that T150ish mark, which is why you are probably seeing aggression around that time. Relative military strength has huge influence on how likely a Civ will DoW, so if you have low military you will be a target and they won't sign a peace treaty as long as they have that military advantage.

5-6 CB's is often enough, however there are a notable few (Hiawatha, Atilla, etc) that go crazy on unit spam, and 5 CB's are going to have a difficult time going on the offensive. In short, play the map. If you spawn next to Gandhi and he is all smiles the whole game, you can probably get by with less military. If you spawn in the middle of Alexander, Atilla, Hiawatha, and Washington, you will need to focus a bit more on military tech and units.

 

[lRooks]

It also seems that attacking and puppetting a city state is.... unpopular ;\

 

[smallfish]

Yes, major civs are pretty touchy feely about that. It's not that great of a choice to attack them unless 1) you want to "keep your borders secure" and by that prevent some random runaway from buying off holes in your rear 2) they are in the way

 

[lRooks]

So after I build up 5-6 CB's, should I switch to swordsmen? I always fall behind at this point because if I don't build more CB's, I get attacked, and if I do, I fall behind in everything else.

 

[Matthew.]

Nah, swords are currently... more harm than good. If you need some sort of meat shield, go for pikes. Civil Service is important anyway for the growth bonus. After universities you can go over to muskets if you really feel you need them for whatever reason, but between crossbows and pikes you should have enough until public schools.

 

[lRooks]

Well I just find that CB's don't have enough "oomph" to take down 8-10 units without dragging the war on for 30+ turns. I'm depending on you guys to tell me if I'm building too few units... which I feel that I am. I just feel like my build order is sort of random so I end up falling behind because of it.

 

[joncnunn]

Thanks for the help jon. I will try to incorporate those things. The frustrating part is that I feel that I am already doing what is being said here. Perhaps I am doing something else that is working against me? Given that I am going straight science (trying to get my first Civ victory ever mind you), should I be building water mills, banks, markets, barracks, etc.? I try to avoid anything that doesn't benefit +gold/+science/+GScientist. I always feel that I am either behind or maybe 1-2 turns ahead in military tech rather than 10-20 which would make defense/offense much easier.

Water Mills: Not just yes, but Hell yes! More food -> more population -> more science. In addition more production -> faster building of science buildings -> more science

Banks / Markets : Yes. More cash -> more money to buy stuff

Barracks: Very low priority, but a naval city with this (& Armory) is important so you can build Privateers that start with 30 XP. (Coastal Raider III, baby). In addition you may want to build Heroic Epic for more strength to all units. (After doing this, sell the surplus barracks to save maintenance cost, just keeping the one in the designed unit building city.)

 

[kirbdog]

"I do not prioritize growth after about city size 5..."

This could be your problem. Science is basically based on population. For that matter, gold and production (with trade routes and tiles worked) are also in their own ways based on population. Aggressively secure the happiness you need to support higher populations sooner in your cities.

With science, you get about 7 beakers late-game for every person that is in a city that has an observatory or the national college (about 9 with both). The difference between 4 cities of size 12 and 4 cities of size 20 is then about 200 science.

 

[lRooks]

I think I must not be doing this opening right... It is nigh impossible to put down my fourth city pre-turn 60. The AI just do not have enough gold on Emperor. And in the rare times that they do, I get DoW'ed instantly upon placing my fourth city. Is it better to play 1-2 cities then expand later? I am really just looking for a solid opening. Everyone seems to like the 4 city tradition opening but I must be missing something

 

[kirbdog]

There are few hard and fast rules here. Something you should be able to achieve, most times, is to hard-build a settler for the second city and then buy a settler with gold for the third city. Build the first one soon enough to finish its library before you get to Philosophy and buy the second one to found as soon as you finish the National College. (Even getting 500 gold may be a challenge that requires you to buy nothing else.)

The Great Library can be yours, though, so there's that consolation.