Forbidden Palace & Versailles

[dojoboy]

What's the consensus on where to build these two wonders?

(1) a city in close proximity (how close?) to other cities?
(2) a city that is already producing a lot of
(3) distance from capital?

 

[Agarwaen]

distance from capital and a good production?

 

[dojoboy]

distance from capital and a good production?

What's the distance re: tiles?

 

[JimT]

Kind of how long is a piece of string question. Depend's on map among many other things.

Check how much city maintenance is costing as it's probably not worth it if your maintenance is below 5 (without a courthouse).
Also important to be among a group of cities not on a peninsula on it's own. I tend to build them right in the middle of territory I just conquered, often with a great engineer (in which case you don't need decent production). Alternatively on your border with land your just about to expand into is ok.

 

[dojoboy]

Kind of how long is a piece of string question. Depend's on map among many other things.

Check how much city maintenance is costing as it's probably not worth it if your maintenance is below 5 (without a courthouse).
Also important to be among a group of cities not on a peninsula on it's own. I tend to build them right in the middle of territory I just conquered, often with a great engineer (in which case you don't need decent production). Alternatively on your border with land your just about to expand into is ok.

So, as in C3C, there isn't a point where it can be too far from your capital?

 

[Ravellion]

So, as in C3C, there isn't a point where it can be too far from your capital?

No. But you can wait too long building one, hoping one day you will expand to "that perfect spot".

Rav

 

[dojoboy]

No. But you can wait too long building one, hoping one day you will expand to "that perfect spot".

Rav

The reason being a loss of exponential benefit?

 

[Bad Brett]

I haven't tried this myself in C4, but I guess you could build it as early as possible and then move your palace instead. Or, you could give the city away to liberate someone's vassal that you want to conquer without declaring war on the master (donate the city, the next turn the vassal may break free, attack and take the city back, now without FP)

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I generally find the Forbidden Palace to be one of those "hope you'll never have to build" wonders, because if even moving your palace is not enough, then your empire is indeed strangely shaped, you've over-expanded or you're in economic trouble. That, or you're playing continents and you're using your galleons and grenadiers and cannons to attack some poor isolated chap that's still using longbows. But then communism is not far from astronomy...

Most of your empire upkeep is really from "number of cities" and "civic maintenance", not distance. A little off-topic, but one of the true magics of CIV is that double the number of cities does NOT mean less than double your power, it means more than double. Because every additional health or luxury resource means one more population in ALL your cities, more than offsetting the increasing rate of increase in city and civic upkeep. More often than not, courthouses don't work because it's the solution to the wrong problem. Your problem is more often than not your income, not your outflow.

Versailles is a little different though. It's usually used when you pick up DR through some peace treaty, you have a high production GP farm and you want great merchant points for some advanced tactic.

 

[JimT]

I generally play random map so I have a fair number of continent/island maps where you want the forbidden Palace. I also have more than my fair share of domination victories (bigger empire, more use). Finally I have oddly shaped empire which consist of my empire plus who ever declared war on me. I sometimes find that I have expanded round an ally as his land wasn't much cop and he's not causing me any trouble. Versaille created through a GP is very good for keeping them happy.

That said I agree with your point but I think it is a matter of play style and distance is no the main contribution to maintenance but it does add up. So its worth avoiding for a GE/200 hammers (or whatever it costs).

I don't have BTS but I assume that it might have a bearing on how I played if I did.

 

[CivDude86]

No. But you can wait too long building one, hoping one day you will expand to "that perfect spot".

I do that every game. Along with waiting for someone else you finish Versailles so I can capture it.

 

[gdgrimm]

I haven't tried this myself in C4, but I guess you could build it as early as possible and then move your palace instead. Or, you could give the city away to liberate someone's vassal that you want to conquer without declaring war on the master (donate the city, the next turn the vassal may break free, attack and take the city back, now without FP)

Yes. That's the strategy for Versailles. If you think you're going to need 3 gov't centers, get Divine Right quicker than most, and build it in a high(er) production city (probably one of your self-founded cities near your Capital). Then build your new Palace in the newly taken area that needs the gov't center.

You can do a similar thing with FP, but the hammer difference between FP and Palace isn't nearly as great as the hammer difference between Versailles and Palace. Trying to get Versailles built in the center of newly taken land takes a long time and risks it being built first by an AI in one of their core cities. If you can get it built in one of your core cities first, then you can build the Palace elsewhere at your leisure.

BTW, note that you can't build Versailles in your Capital. Which can be really annoying if your Capital is well situated as the center of your core cities.

 

[KMadCandy]

BTW, note that you can't build Versailles in your Capital. Which can be really annoying if your Capital is well situated as the center of your core cities.

i've temporarily moved my palace at times to build versailles or FP in my original capital, sometimes right next door since that city can make it quick. the palace is cheap in hammers compared to those 2, and you can always move it later ... FP and versailles the locations are final.

OTOH if i'm gonna let the AI build a wonder for me, versailles is often the best choice.

 

[Greeneyedzombie]

OTOH if i'm gonna let the AI build a wonder for me, versailles is often the best choice.

Knowing the stupidity of the ai with versailles, they almost always build it on the (for them) wrong place. Right next to their capitol, wich is of course perfect for the player.

 

[onedreamer]

They are nearly useless to me. You have to look at decimals to see any difference after building them.

 

[dojoboy]

They are nearly useless to me. You have to look at decimals to see any difference after building them.

I agree that the FP is not as powerful as in Civ3, but a difference of +8 per turn can mean 10-20% of research investment.

 

[KMadCandy]

this thread is in the warlords forum but i'm gonna sneak a BtS-only related thought into it. i've never made a colony in BtS yet, none of my games have lasted that long until the current one. this game, i went to war and demolished a guy and kept his cities on another smallish continent. i decided not to take his capitulation because during the war i discovered steam power, found out i had no coal and he had one source. nobody else had steam power yet. i had this fear of teching him up to steam power so that i could demand it from him, and him trading my monopoly techs to everybody else waaaaaah. found out later it has my only sources of oil too, i picked the right guy to squash!

but the thought of colony expenses scared me too, along with the distance maintenance. at first i was thinking of building versailles over there. then i thought the palace, since it doesn't matter which city is the actual palace once i'm not in bureaucracy. realized in time that would make my original (bigger) continent pay colony prices so that would be REALLY bad.

so i built the forbidden palace over there. my thinking was that if i do later turn those cities into a colony, i get the right to build a forbidden palace again, since it's a national wonder and i'd have lost the city mine was built in. if i built versailles over there and then colonized 'em, i could never build versailles anywhere else or capture it from an AI who conveniently built it somewhere far from my palace.

i know FP doesn't cut down colony expenses but it did help with the distance. i think it really helped but i wonder if it was kind of permanoobish in some way that i don't know. i mean just the "build FP over there on the basis of i'd get it back if i later liberate 'em" part, not the being indecisive, of course that last part is permanoob *giggle*. his holy city/capital did have the time/hammers to build FP, i was in a golden age, so it wasn't a seriously huge problem to build it. game is still going and i still haven't liberated them, expenses are okay but i reserve the right to if i need to .

 

[gdgrimm]

They are nearly useless to me. You have to look at decimals to see any difference after building them.

Well, in games where they are going to be useless, don't build them. I get quite a few games that go that route.

The trick is to know in which games it WILL help generate a 10+% research increase, and build it accordingly.

 

[Terry_pdx]

The discussion so far only seems to talk about finance. I agree that the Forbidden Palace is only slightly valuable if you switch soon to Communism, better though if you need the health and go for environmentalism. Versailles is completely different. Sure, the distance from the palace helps the outlying economy, but the main feature is the culture boost. I've been amazed what Versailles does to push back competing borders on a far but essential outpost. Distance is only a secondary concern. I've changed play lately to go after Theology, so even if I miss getting Christianity I have a good use for a Great Prophet to quickly research Divine Right and get an edge on Islam and Versailles.

 

[gdgrimm]

... Versailles is completely different. Sure, the distance from the palace helps the outlying economy, but the main feature is the culture boost. ...

It's a nice secondary feature, I certainly wouldn't claim it as being the main feature though. The hammer analysis just doesn't work out.

Versailles is very costly to build (800 ), and generates something like +10 . For just about half as much effort (480 ), one can build a Theatre, Library, University, Temple, and Monastery (assume 1 religion in the city), and get +11 and +85% science, and +1 . That's a far better hammer investment.

The Hermitage, the Cathedral level religion buildings, and the Globe Theatre, are better suited buildings when the primary goal is pushing borders.