Forbidden Palace without a Great Leader

Zachriel

Kaiser
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Oct 7, 2001
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Jovian System
The "classic" Forbidden Palace strategy is to conquer a province, generate a Great Leader and rush the Forbidden Palace in the new province. But what if you don't get a Great Leader? How do you handle the corruption?

Zachriel's Forbidden Palace Strategy
http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/forbiddenpalace.htm
 

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I'm curious why you rushed the library and university, but didn't mention rushing a factory or police station. Also, did you make use of WLTK to reduce corruption while building the ForbPal?
 
1500 A. D. seems pretty late in the game for building the Forbidden Place, but I guess every player has their own style. I usually build it after the ancient age wars are over and I am waiting for the age of knights, maybe 400 A. D. or so. At that stage in the game, it is tough to get enough gold to rush many improvements, and despot rushing is no longer a good option for the Forbidden Palace city (version 1.17).

Without a leader, for placement on a standard size map, 8 to 12 squares from the capital seems good. With a leader, distance from the capital is irrelevant and I look for the best place to nest five cities or so around the location.

For players that wait for Calvary or Tanks to attack, the posted strategy tip is a useful one. For players that attack earlier, other options need to be examined.
 
Originally posted by Ironikinit
I'm curious why you rushed the library and university, but didn't mention rushing a factory or police station. Also, did you make use of WLTK to reduce corruption while building the ForbPal?

The library and university are cultural improvements. Looking at the big map, you can see that Munich is surrounded by neighboring high-culture cities, so culture first to prevent any flips.

Munich is not just a place to build the Forbidden Palace, but a center of culture that will help subdue the surrounding areas when they are "absorbed" into the English Empire.

The factory and police station were rushed before starting the Forbidden Palace. We Love the Queen Day started the moment the town stopped resisting the turn after conquest (it was the last German town). England at the time was a Republic and had plenty of luxuries goods, and 10% luxury spending.
 
Originally posted by BillChin
1500 A. D. seems pretty late in the game for building the Forbidden Place, but I guess every player has their own style. I usually build it after the ancient age wars are over and I am waiting for the age of knights, maybe 400 A. D. or so. At that stage in the game, it is tough to get enough gold to rush many improvements, and despot rushing is no longer a good option for the Forbidden Palace city (version 1.17).

Without a leader, for placement on a standard size map, 8 to 12 squares from the capital seems good. With a leader, distance from the capital is irrelevant and I look for the best place to nest five cities or so around the location.

For players that wait for Calvary or Tanks to attack, the posted strategy tip is a useful one. For players that attack earlier, other options need to be examined.

Good points.

In this case, England was a compact nation in the ancient age, until conquering the Zulus in the SE and Germany in the West. The Forbidden Palace was not really necessary early on.

When playing a strong position, especially with hostile neighbors, expansion is the norm. Many players have indicated the difficulty of building the Forbidden Palace in the frontier due to corruption, so I made a point of addressing this specific issue.

If you build the Forbidden Palace early, then if you conquer later, there will be no end to corruption. The timing of the Forbidden Palace is one of the most important decisions in the game. I often build it in the Ancient Age, especially if I think I will be defending. If I am expanding, I hold off until I can place it in a good position to control the outlying provinces.

An English Leader never emerged.
 
Originally posted by BillChin
For players that wait for Calvary or Tanks to attack, the posted strategy tip is a useful one. For players that attack earlier, other options need to be examined.

The Zulu War was with Sword and Catapults. Tough, very tough. Their capital was on a hill!

I can rarely conquer an entire continent in the ancient era; however, if I do I have always had a Great Leader emerge. Even if I didn't though, then there would be little opposition at that point and nothing to prevent building banks in the interior of the Empire, making money and rushing the necessary improvements.

I only build the Forbidden Palace that close to the Empire's interior if I expect to be fighting defense the rest of the game, or have docile neighbors who will let me build in peace.

With the given position, I have good production in 2/3's of the continent. This was the ideal placement, but the ideal is not always practical. Munich is not just a city, but a demonstration to my neighbors of the benefits of English civilization, a way to subdue my neighbors culturally, now and when they "decide" to join the English Empire.

In any case, you are right! There are many other options.
 
Your strategy seems to somewhat work if you don't get around to building the palace until later in the game. This approach works well on smaller maps, and also if you plan on a lot of conquest. On a tiny map, I used the Germans, on the right side, to take over the French over time, and built the Forbidden Palace in Paris around the same period as you. The French had already done the hard work - building roads/mines/irrigation - so I just needed to rush some crucial improvements.

However, in the larger games, I think another strategy bears mention. I know I've seen it mentioned early and often, but I think it bears repetition. Let's say you have an average sized Civ, with about six or seven core production cities. Your capital, then two or three around it, then a couple more a little further out that have done pretty well. You've just switched to Republic, but there's still some corruption on the fringe. In addition, those pesky Zulus to the north are itching for a fight, and you want to lay the smackdown on them.

Rush build any remaining cultural improvements - you're in better shape if they've already been built - you can just start on a palace whenever you're done with those and keep going until you switch to Republic for some extra shields. Be sure you're connected to the capital and luxuries and are either on a river or have the Aqueduct completed. And get some mines in place.

Once you're in republic, you should see a corruption drop-off. The extra productivity, combined with saved shields from the palace, should get the puppy built in 20-35 rounds. Best part is that when you are done, you'll boost up the bulk of your "early empire." And have a cultural boost to help take some of those pesky neighbor's cities for free, while strengthening your own culture to prevent a flip when you launch your actual invasion.

Now here's the trickier part. After you switch to Democracy, you can use Zachriel's Forbidden Palace trick to build your real palace in an opponent's capital city. If you're on a huge continent, you can build it on the other end; if you like the way your own continent is, you can build it on the other continent. I know of no other way to effectively maintain an empire on another continent, short of this strategy. The corruption is too great otherwise, and it's very expensive to rush build everything in every city. But a well placed palace after you rush build in just one city works well. And you don't have to save your forbidden palace for the late game.
 
Originally posted by hoyatables
However, in the larger games, I think another strategy bears mention. . . . But a well placed palace after you rush build in just one city works well. And you don't have to save your forbidden palace for the late game.

Moving the capital has historical justification: Constantine moved the capital of the Roman Empire to Constantinople at the juncture of Europe and Asia. There is still much discussion as to whether it was a good idea or not.
 
The above ideas are very useful, but now a word on the actual mechanics of building it.

I find that if one has just conquered somewhere, or found a fresh area of land, the Forbidden Palace should be built in the city with the highest population. Even at a very large distance from your capital, a size twelve city with a courthouse and WLTK day can get perhaps 6 shields, slashing the build time for FP. Its all about careful management (I find that building it in a city with flood plains and hills is best), or simply getting a leader. But without, micromanage until you get the maximum amount of shields, and be prepared for it to take 100 turns: its worth it.
 
Originally posted by Ackrite99
The above ideas are very useful, but now a word on the actual mechanics of building it.

In the given example, it took 30 turns (1555-1700) to take a town of size two with no improvements to all improvements, a Forbidden Palace and a size 20 metropolis. It did take cash, but the commerical heart of England was producing tons of gold, not to mention the income from the sale of techs and luxury goods. Munich was 20 squares away from London.

or simply getting a leader

A Great Leader would have been very handy. :)

BTW, Monarch, Wet, Raging, Standard Pangaea, a dozen Civs.
 
OK, I keep hearing people talk about building the FP near/in their original capital, then a new palace in a new part of their empire. WHY? Is there something I'm missing here? The FP costs only a fraction as much as a palace, so wouldn't it take even longer to get the palace built than the FP? Thereby aren't you shooting yourself in the foot by losing your palace's age bonus, without getting anything out of it that I can see?
 
Originally posted by Beamup
OK, I keep hearing people talk about building the FP near/in their original capital, then a new palace in a new part of their empire. WHY? Is there something I'm missing here? The FP costs only a fraction as much as a palace, so wouldn't it take even longer to get the palace built than the FP? Thereby aren't you shooting yourself in the foot by losing your palace's age bonus, without getting anything out of it that I can see?
The reason you might want to move the palace is to discourage your cities from flipping and encourage opposition cities to flip to you. One of the factors in culture flip is the distance to your palace.

I've been finding that the discovery of Communism dictates when I build the FP. I'll be in Republic when I plan for the FP. I buy the cultural and production improvements that I can in the target city then revolt to communism to build the palace. It's important that you rush the improvements with Republic, not Communism as the whipping makes the city non-productive for too long. The reduced corruption on the border allows construction of the FP in a reasonable amount of time. Switching to a wartime economy will also help speed the construction. This means that there's a short war at the end of the FP build cycle to get back to a normal economy. After that's all taken care of, I generally revolt to a Democracy.

Due to the frequent revolutions this works much better with a religious civ.
 
Originally posted by Beamup
OK, I keep hearing people talk about building the FP near/in their original capital, then a new palace in a new part of their empire. WHY? Is there something I'm missing here? The FP costs only a fraction as much as a palace, so wouldn't it take even longer to get the palace built than the FP? Thereby aren't you shooting yourself in the foot by losing your palace's age bonus, without getting anything out of it that I can see?

You are right about losing the cultural value of the Palace, but for those who like to conquer the world, it is a reasonable strategy. They build the Forbidden Palace near the core of their empire, which helps in the early game, then move the palace in the late game.

This is due to the fact that the Palace can be rebuilt any number of times as the front line moves. The Forbidden Palace only once.

Personally, I have a sentimental attachment to my Palace and have never moved it. Instead, if I have a "winning" position and expect to expand rapidly, I delay the Forbidden Palace until I can place it where I can rule my nascent empire. If I am defending, I will build it as soon as possible to realize the maximum benefit.
 
If you have a religious civ, during a long war 10/20 rounds switch to communisem and build the forbidden palace where you want.


v1.17
 
The FP can also be used to make a big production center around the capital and the FP city. That area produces virtually all military units that are required in the game. In that case the FP can be build quite early and you can make most use of it.

WLTKD helps a lot, a Golden Age even more! Not sure what the stats are but a GA more than doubles the production speed. An FP in the course of a GA is very well possible, if combined with WLTKD and not to far form the Palace.

Comments and/or additions?
 
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