Foreign Affairs Proposal for May 14 chat turn

[Shaitan]

This proposal (modified by citizen response) will become the Foreign Affairs instructions for the May 14 chat turn. There is some overlap here with the Science Department as some techs are available with the ROP deals. The Science Leader can veto any deal that involves tech but please do it ASAP so new deals can be proposed.

Background:
We have embassies with everybody.
We have ROPs with everybody except the Aztecs.
We didn't get an ROP with the Aztecs because they broke our Alliance against Babylon and declared war on us.
ROPs come due (are renegotiable) in 1 turn for the Iroqois, India and Zulu.
Our 1 gold/turn gift to the Iroqois expires in 1 turn.
ROPs are negotiable now with the Aztecs, Rome, Greece, China and Babylon.
China has an ROP with every country except Rome.
There are no immigrants ready to make Phoenatica their home.

Proposal:
Immediate ROP deals on turn 0 (each deal has an ROP in addition to the detail listed)
Aztecs - Give 35 gold, get Printing Press
Rome - Get 3 g/t plus 23 gold plus World Map
Greece - Give 6 gold, get Gunpowder
China - Get 6 gold and World Map
Babylon - Get 26 gold

ROP deals on turn 1
Iroqois, India and Zulu. Get as much as possible for each.

Reasoning:
ROPs strengthen our relationships with our neighbors. They also allow our trade network to reach far flung civilizations.

Right now, Rome is China's most attractive target. They don't need to break any deals when they declare war and they've got a straight shot to Rome through Phoenatican lands. If we do not have an ROP with China we will become a target on par with Rome.

The straight cash deal with Greece would be 17 gold plus 4 g/t (97 gold total value). Two turns of research at 50% will cost 252 gold. Getting Gunpowder 2 turns early saves us a bundle.

Many were angered at the Aztecs for their betrayal. Sources inside Aztecia have a different story. They tell of an alliance that went unhonored by the Phoenatics for year after year. As Aztec's sons died on the spears of Babylon, never did a Phoenatican join in support of their supposed allies. It is time to heal these wounds.
(Translation: We didn't commit any troops to the Phoenatic/Aztec alliance. The AI freaks out at around 15 turns when you don't support an alliance.)

 

[donsig]

Aztecs - Give 35 gold, get Printing Press

Chieftess has propsed exporting spices to the Iroquois. In the deal we would get the printing press for free.

Her post is in the trade dept. thread.

 

[Plexus]

I also suggest a gift of 1 to 2 gold to China to improve relations.

 

[Immortal]

Once again, great job boss!

 

[chiefpaco]

Good research. However, I don't trust China nor do I trust the Aztecs, so I would not like to see ROPs with them. Grant them nothing! I did not like to see so many of their troops freely use our territory in their war against Rome - a point that maybe Rome did not take well with us. I do not think we should allow them free passage and at the very least keep a very keen eye on any movement on their part in our territory.

The Aztecs should be thankful they got the deal that granted them peace from our own Immortals' swords.

 

[Chieftess]

We also get Gunpowder in 2 turns, so I don't see a need for an immediate trade. We could wait and see if there are any new techs in 2 turns. In my opinion trading for a tech that will eventually be researched in less than 5 turns is a waste of whatever we trade.

If we are that desperate for Gunpowder, we can get it a lot cheaper by pushing science to 70%. This would cost 26 gold (net loss of 26) - we'd learn it the next turn, much better than trading away maps and hefty amounts of gold. (To trade it alone would be 100+ gold) Granted, the above deals are with a ROP, however, this is an option if the above doesn't work out.

 

[Lecky]

Our relations with China are arguably the most important aspect of foreign policy at present, and will continue to be so (in all probability) for the forseeable future. We must consider this question very carefully.There appears to be widespread concern amongst citizens and officials about Chinese activities in our south-easterly regions. The salient factors involve our current (but shortly to be renegotiated or cancelled) ROP with China, and our assessment of the Chinese motives with respect to their presence on our territory.

I have to say that I am somewhat uncomfortable with the ramafications for military planning attendant upon a foreign policy of Chinese appeasement. Such a policy effectively turns us into collaborators with Chinese aggression, while at the same time leaves us vulnerable in the event of Chinese betrayal. Military planning requires a clear direction from the Foreign Office about our long-term relationship with China.

 

[donsig]

Lecky makes some good points but I think our military must be kept strong no matter what our policy towards China becomes. In this time of peace we must not do away with nor drastically slash the military budget. We must also ensure that adequate military forces are recruited and I urge our governors to work with General Falcon02 to keep our military at an appropriate level.

 

[Shaitan]

Since Chieftess has found a way to secure the Printing Press the Aztec ROP deal would be for cash plus payments.

None of the ROP deals require us giving up a map - on several, we get a map.

The gift to the Iroqois Nation will be increased to 2 g/t.

If popular opinion makes the ROP with China impossible we will instead gift them with a 2 g/t bounty.

Our Foreign Policy is currently to live and let live, with the exception of the handful of cities remaining to fulfull our Manifest Destiny. Those cities have been targeted for Cultural Acquisition. Although I do not want to settle into any policies of appeasement, I'm willing to pay for peace in the short term. Peace is an odd concept for Phoenatica as we have been at war for thousands of years. I'd like to give it a chance to see if we like it.

I'm also not concerned with being painted as a corroborator with the Chinese. We are maintaining our neutrality and will give Rome whatever advantages we give to the Chinese, should our oriental neighbors attack our friends to the south.

 

[Eklektikos]

Originally posted by donsig
Lecky makes some good points but I think our military must be kept strong no matter what our policy towards China becomes. In this time of peace we must not do away with nor drastically slash the military budget. We must also ensure that adequate military forces are recruited and I urge our governors to work with General Falcon02 to keep our military at an appropriate level.

As governor of the chinese highway (also known as Asphinxia) I'm all too aware of the need to keep our defenses strong. For the time being I've drawn up a program of wall building, and once the cities are are up and running with some semblance of effectiveness I'll be consulting with the Military Department to find out what their needs are. I hope this plan is satisfactory to all.

 

[Shaitan]

As improvement rushing in support of the Cultural Assault will apparently not be required, a substantial portion of the Foreign Affairs budget will be returned to the treasury.

 

[chiefpaco]

Originally posted by Shaitan
If popular opinion makes the ROP with China impossible we will instead gift them with a 2 g/t bounty.

Who is "we"? Why "will" "we" do that? I oppose giving them anything, but it doesn't sound like a motion, but a contingency of your first suggestion, if it does not appease the citizens. We are currently trading with China to keep them from blowing up in our face, and I think it is more than sufficent. Why should we give them gold to pay for their army?

 

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by chiefpaco


Who is "we"? Why "will" "we" do that? I oppose giving them anything, but it doesn't sound like a motion, but a contingency of your first suggestion, if it does not appease the citizens. We are currently trading with China to keep them from blowing up in our face, and I think it is more than sufficent. Why should we give them gold to pay for their army?

I agree. Giving China gold would be like paying mercaneries to pillage our own cities.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by chiefpaco


Who is "we"? Why "will" "we" do that? I oppose giving them anything, but it doesn't sound like a motion, but a contingency of your first suggestion, if it does not appease the citizens. We are currently trading with China to keep them from blowing up in our face, and I think it is more than sufficent. Why should we give them gold to pay for their army?

"We" is Phoenatica. I'd pay it myself but I'm a bit short of virtual gold.

The reason is that every concurrent deal with them makes them that much more happy. This amount is a pittance. It won't pay for a single upgrade over the entire course of the deal.

 

[Zur]

Shaitan: Since Chieftess has found a way to secure the Printing Press the Aztec ROP deal would be for cash plus payments.

So this is decided then. Printing Press will be obtained like this:

Chieftess: Iroquois : Spice --> Printing Press, 3GPT, 56 gold up front (entire treasury!)

And Gunpowder will be obtained like this:

Shaitan: Greece - Give 6 gold, get Gunpowder

Edit: correction: it was not finalised between Shaitan & Chieftess how to obtain Gunpowder, since Shaitan expressed his preference but Chieftess did not confirm it.

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Shaitan:If popular opinion makes the ROP with China impossible we will instead gift them with a 2 g/t bounty.

How was this decided? Departments are supposed to take decisions based on opinions of citizens. I am ambivalent about this since it's a small amount, but the principle...
Since there is significant amount of opposition to this, I think further discussion (at least) is merited.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Zur
How was this decided? Departments are supposed to take decisions based on opinions of citizens. I am ambivalent about this since it's a small amount, but the principle...
Since there is significant amount of opposition to this, I think further discussion (at least) is merited.

The resistance to an ROP deal with China has all centered on their taking advantage of it to attack us. There has been no sentiment at all against keeping China happy and off of our backs. If my original plan for the ROP was defeated by popular support then the backup plan would go into effect.

Remember that this is all a proposal at this point. The g/t to China is just as much a part of the proposal as the original ROP idea. It's here for questions and comments and isn't written in stone until shortly before game time tomorrow.

 

[Shaitan]

I am moving the proposal to the chat instructions now. There were 8 respondents and 2 opposed to the ROP deal with China, 1 opposed to the ROP deal with Aztecs. At the moment both of those deals are in the instruction set. Remember that these are not final until shortly before game time (actually, they'll be final at around 20:30 GMT as that's the last time I'll be online before the chat starts).

Chiefpaco and Lefty - If you can drum up some additional support against the ROPs I'll axe them but for now they have to stay in based on general support.