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Foreign Policy and General Diplomacy

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by Caledorn, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    This is absolutely possible scenario. To those who say religious win is not possible, yes it is, it just requires the lucky alignment of occurrences.

    This is another possible scenario. Still it is not a stupid AI to outsmart and raze the AP. I've never saw the AP being razed just like that for the sole reason to get rid of it in any game.

    But just be sure that teams will neglect the AP and secretly laugh at the one who build it as no one will consider religious win possible.

    I dont see anyone excited about religious win, we are discussing possibilities. And I am sure the team as a whole is well better aware what it takes to try religious win or grab it if the chance is nearby.

    Conquest is just as imaginary win condition, I've never seen this sign at the end of a pitboss trough my maybe ten pitboss wins. As I said, it comes either to all other just conceding at some point, or the strongest nation gets 3 legendary cities or space win or even alliance forming to end the game in relatively tie and all from the winning coalition feel winners to some degree, while the losers are clear :)

    True.

    It is not fantasy, I have seen it happen once - I think Classical Hero won that or at least he was in that game and can tell us more details. And in one of my games where I was happily smashing trough an alliance of only 4-5 nations left to oppose me. I got lucky that one of my opponents felt the guy with the AP dont actually deserves the win for being most of the game real douche-bag and preferred his enemy to win instead of this cheap win for his so-called-ally and did not voted for him. It was a matter of 1 or 2 votes. So yes, religious wins are not impossible. They are just always dependent on other people, so you cant really plan and win on your own.

    I repeat - no one will come after us if we just build the AP. Now, if we build the AP and propose religious win vote but miss it, then thats different :D

    I've done that in one game where I came as substitute. Mavericks pitboss if someone remember it. I was like position 18 out of 18 due to AI playing my nation for like month. I had only 2 cities while others had like 10 and the second was so badly placed by the AI, that I asked Niklas to just declare me a war and raze it (good point and idea about that kind of "favors", Maga) As the time was going, I gathered around myself the lesser nations of the world and there there were 3 major powers who was able to grab the space win. One was our alliance candidate, the second was a player who had done some favors to us (along with arming us with technology to produce nukes LOL) and the third was one of our worst enemies. As the time was passing, we saw that our alliance candidate is not going to make it and we decided to support the less evil of the two others. We nuked the number one enemy, so the other guy can have his space win. We did not won, but we decided who the winner is going to be.

    I cant tell, but not all players are reaching for the win, I have heard many times "fourth place is OK position and quite achievement in a game with competitors like you guys" or "Second place is good for me". The second place thing I have heard few times. I am not sure if teams will have this mindset, but sometimes as the game goes one changes his mind and attitude few times. What now can look impossible, at some point in the game nerves loose, hatred changes love, people get the best of other. Anything can happen :) We just need to keep our possibilities and eyes open.

    I dont think it will make ourselves a target, but also dont think it will be worth to pursue dedicated. But we will see. If we get second Priest in a row or we need theocracy or whatever, then why not?

    Right in the "10"! Very well summarizes the whole AP win case. And I also dont think those talks were without a gain. There are only few win conditions in the game and we just discussed and outlined one of them.

    Well done, team!
     
  2. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Hi vranasm,

    will you be supporting my idea to try to see if we can get anything for missionaries from other teams? I could draft letters e.g. to Spanish Apolyton and Germans and put it under teams discussion.

    I suspect religious economy dynamics can be different in MP than in SP. For example, either for profit or out of fear, once our religion becomes popular - and especially once we have AP - other civs may spread our religion to their cities aggressively.

    I also understand that we are currently arming for the defense - which should not be neglected - but which makes investing in economy tempting.

    Religious economy is not cure -all - but we need some solution to happiness problem. i still think pyramids would be best, but looks like we would rather pursue monarchy. Monarchy opens access to wine (+1 happy) but also encourages achieving happiness through garrisoning cheap military units. It is all worth testing, but I suspect that with emperor maintenance cost, this is not such a cheap solution. Temples, on the other hand, cost nothing in maintenance (and can bring hammers, etc later on) and can produce great prophets - useful for bulging religious dead-end technologies or golden ages
     
  3. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    This is possibility too. But I have news for ya all. Today we spoke with Proviisori and we discussed in open the possibility of dogpiling RB. He actually said we need to do that earlier than later. I have also discussed things with bistrita, who I finally caught on chat and he said he believes RB will be playing nice and calm until they get Rifles first and then they will outbreak. So we might want to think how to get rid of them earlier?
     
  4. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Most of the times yes. But not only. I use pen too of course. The pen is mightier than the sword :p Also, with a kind word and a gun, you can have far more than only with a gun :)
     
  5. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    I would use missioner as sweet as it can be not as a bargain chip, but rather invest him in relations with our neighbors. On the other hand
    is one thing we should always try to do when dealing with other teams - to give them easy to understand reasons why we want some things. Help get what you want most of the time. Practical psychology :)

    Agree on that. Getting ourselves attacked will be general failure of our diplomacy and our game as a whole.
     
  6. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    I'd really like to see the chat transcript if possible :)
     
  7. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    I think economically it looks tempting. It will cost us 320 :hammers: (with OR bonus), vranasm says temples are 40 :hammers:. That means that if we have 10 cities, for 76 :hammers: we will get 2 :hammers: per turn bonus, break-even at 38 turns. With 20 cities, break-even point is at 28 turns. This does not include cost of great prophet, though (necessary to bulb theology). But if we get a shrine, we can get great prophet easier than other gp, it comes with several prophet slots. Since we are in it for a long haul (some talk about space victory), math sounds good. Or am I missing something?

    2metra, since we are far way from getting even GP, the above is future. But the idea of exchanging unique units with other teams was discussed already. I was thinking that instead of our worker, we could proposed to exchange missionaries for military units (at good ratio, of course). For instance, Spanish Apolyton did not want any formal NAPs, but "trust-building" steps. I wonder if they would be interested in such exchange?
     
  8. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Those are not true in MP. MP games dont end at cuirs. They just dont.

    You will be surprised to hear that just last turn in the MTDG3 prep pitboss not someone else, but Lord Parkin have built The Spiral Minaret. Also he had built the AP some time ago and used it to stop a war against him just recently ;) And now he will force me to switch my religion and spread his, despite I have a Holy City of my own, just to make sure he cant vote himself AP win. So in MP things are different in many aspects.
     
  9. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    When I get in the office tomorrow if compy is not restarted, I'll post it.
     
  10. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Here you hit another "10". We are not planning any war any soon and investing in economy is not bad thing. As for religious economy, dont underestimate auto-spread once we build roads and open borders. As for monasteries, they are good as they are. Adding the AP bonus makes them great. Yes, they expire at SciMeth. so is The Great Library. Should we call it a bad building?

    We might think of building the Pyramids again if they are still not built by anyone turn 88 and we are free to connect our stone :mischief:
     
  11. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Best with somebody else's hands, of course :lol:

    I would not attempted unless in true majority ally. You also said you think we would pull ahead anyway? If that is indeed the case, we should just stay quiet. But whatever we do it is definitely in our interest to encourage such discussions - but we also have to remember they are current ally. Ideally others would be so impatient they could not wait until our NAP expires - but I don't think we will be that lucky.
     
  12. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    I do not underestimate it :D

    Natural spread of religion solely needs connectivity of the Holy City and the receiving city, it does not require actual trade routes or open borders, it doesn't even need established contact!

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11295194&postcount=742

    I also count of some other players spreading our religion for profit and later defensively
     
  13. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    I was hoping that we can mess RB - or another leading civ this way. Making them to abandon their plans to spread our religion. Although if we annoy them to much, the army will knock on our doors, so careful diplomacy is definitely needed
     
  14. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    No, no, no. Exporting war (trough generous units gifts/upgrades, gold gifts, influencing someone's mind) is great to do, but when you are the current leader.

    When you are fighting the current leader, the situation requires you to take the fight to your heart and put everything in it. Failed dogpiles are tragedy. Cautiousness equals failure. All the plotters must draw knives as one and strike for the heart.

    Also, if I want someone dead, I go and aim to kill him myself. The right way is to lead, not to drive people in attack.
     
  15. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Why we offer missionaries? I would say that we started with mysticism and pursue early religion and monotheism, so that is what we have :) And our workers are currently too busy and building them stops city growth, so that is what we are offering. And unlike soldiers or workers, missionaries can multiple themselves, are not likely to be killed before used and give plethora of benefits. And true, we will likely get shrine at some point and profit from this in the end, but we do not have a single temple yet...so not much of a factor now

    I would not give missionaries for free- I think they are too valuable. Ironically, I also think other civs will be less likely to accept them if offered for free, they would look for a catch. We can do practical experiment
     
  16. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    We would pull ahead, not sure if we can have the comfort of just becoming the biggest and richest ba$tards in the game and just cruise to victory. I just want to say that we could be major players in the game, as we will be in the higher category of them all. From there, it is our job to play our good cards best and win the game :)
     
  17. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Yes, yes, this is what I meant when mentioned the practical psychology trick of giving an acceptable explanation for your acts to others and save yourself the suspicions about your real intentions.
     
  18. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    I meant that by just watching, we cannot loose much. Worst that could happen is that nobody will do nothing. And as you said, unsuccessful dogpiles are tragedy. I agree that watching others fight is not very chivalrous, but that would have practical advantages - RB will be weakened anyway and we will not endanger ourselves. Although since they are only 2 teams talking, without us, probably there is not much chance of it happening. Especially that we are RB's neighbor

    Important questions here are:

    1. What are our chances of winning without a dog pile?
    2. What are chance of dogpile succeeding?
    3. Who would emerge as a leader after successful dog pile?
    4. Who may be next victim?

    Basically the question is if we have more to loose or to gain at this stage. Since you said before you are not that worried about us pulling ahead eventually, sounds like we may have a lot to loose. We can also test RB's attitude toward long-term NAP with us and factor it into a decision
     
  19. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Proviisori is from WPC. They just started war with the Germans - took one city easily, but war is probably far from over. I think they are in no condition now to plan dogpile on RB. Did he address German war in any way?
     
  20. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Well, such early dogpile I did not considered either. More like HA/catapults at the earliest I think.

    Yes, he said it is just slow. Not much of war actually happens.
     

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