Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by Caledorn, Jul 28, 2012.
I'll draft something to UCiv.
Yes, it's definitely time to start making decisions about our long-term diplomacy goals. Here is a crude overview of our surrounding areas for reference:
So our direct neighbors are RB, WPC, UCiv and the Spaniards. We're actually a little further from WPC and a little closer to UCiv than that map implies. The Spanish are our closest neighbors. We have NAPs with RB and WPC to T100, and with UCiv to T92 or T95. We proposed a NAP to T115 to the Germans, but that was not addressed in the prepared greeting we received from them the next day.
In general, I'm thinking we should work on securing a safe western border, extending our NAPS with RB, WPC and the Germans. That leaves us more flexible against UCiv and the Spaniards. We've had problems with the way that UCiv has conducted their diplo with us, and we are weary of trusting them in the long-term. The Spaniards have been the only team to refuse a NAP outright, and are the worst-performing team in a number of categories, including military.
However, we should be in no hurry to rush into any wars. There is SO much land left to settle, we need to focus on economy and expansion, not soldiers. NAPs with anyone who will take them at least through T125 are in order. We'll always have the option to DOW the Spanish, so we want to make sure our other borders are secure.
RB may not be viable for a game-long ally, but I think the key is to take out our weaker neighbors to get a food, hammer and commerce advantage over RB. If we can take out the Spaniards and then UCiv while we diplomatically prevent RB from swallowing up the remains of WPC and the Germans, then we'll be in an excellent position.
The wild cards in all of this are CivFr, CP and Poly, ranked #2, #3 and #4 respectively. Poly seems to border the Germans and the Spaniards, confirming an East-West wrap, and the Spaniards have met CivFr. We don't even know anyone who has met CP.
Those are my thoughts at least. I'm sure there are lots of differing opinions. Now is the time to hear them all out, and then settle on a best course of action.
I like very much your general idea of how our diplomacy should work. I agree with secure western borders and open opportunities in the north and east. I was tempted already few times to propose that we gut Spaniards while we have a NAP with RB, but that was just a moment childish desire, so I never speak it loud. With the current increase in Uciv's military, the situation with Spaniards can easily escalate quick in 2 extremely opposite directions. One is that Uciv are arming to attack the Spaniards and once we see they are attacked, we jump at the poor Spaniards too and bring quick end to their existence. We divide the spoils with Uciv and are OK. Other is possible situation is if we see Uciv attacks Spaniards, to take the harder, but more rewarding if successful path - we attack Uciv's core while their main army is in Zululand. If we succeed, we will have a loyal (and weaker than us, which is important) ally in the Spaniards and we will be very big and rich getting most of Uciv's numerous cities and good land.
Other good opportunity which we will keep open with the secure-west;open-north+east strategy will be if Uciv are arming to attack WPC. We can possibly persuade Spaniards to join us and we strike at Uciv. Crippling or outright conquering them will be great and we will have not one, but 2 loyal allies - WPC and Spaniards.
Those are just random thoughts.
We should at least be mindful of the other possibility -- that Uciv's military is increasing to attack us. Hopefully isn't, but let's be sure we have a plan for that eventuality too.
Yeah, I thought of that, but it just feels like it is not the case. We have not direct border contact, we have a jungle between our two teams and we have somewhat too much of a distance between cores for an early war to be successful. I for once could not plan an attack on Uciv now.
More likely scenario could be they are arming to attack WPC. This could be very very bad scenario for us too. Combined with RB attack on WPC, that could be catastrophic for us and may force us to take on the Spaniards to keep our team competitive.
Or take on RB, if we can get the Germans on board and we figure we won't be out of the running after such a target. Though I lean towards the Spaniards.
Great discussion going on in the WPC thread! Since we're starting to talk about our foreign policy concerning multiple teams, I thought I'd post here in this thread. Here's a picture of our neighborhood for reference:
The Spanish are definitely our closest neighbors. UCiv seems very close as well, but I truly believe that their capital is two or three cities north of their stone plant. Meanwhile, WPC looks pretty far, but those border are actually their capital borders. I believe that is even before the T50 border pop, so their actual capital city tile is just one tile in the fog. In terms of war, it seems that it would be easier to take and keep UCiv's cities, since they are far-flung settlements, compared to WPC's cities, which are in their core area and easily reinforced. The Spanish would be the easiest to conquer of everyone.
We must remember that we have no NAP with the Spaniards, so we need to be very careful of covering our cities with Axes as their Impi goes exploring. For example, it is currently 2 tiles north of Lana, which is guarded by a Warrior. I think Moss the Axe is within range of covering this city, but since Impi's are 2-movers, we need to be on our toes here.
Good watchfulness, Yossa. I went and moved Moss in Lana when I saw the Impi last time I logged in. I even went further and set an axe with 3 hammers only as next build so we are able to get 2 axes in 2 turns via 2-pop whip if they are hiding another 1-2-3 impis in the fog around (not very likely but still better be safe than be sorry...) Generally the Spaniards are not suited to rush us successfully at all, but this is not something to stop them from opportunity taking in razing a major front city, so we must be on our guard with them for sure.
As Sommerswerd mentioned (I think it was in the WPC thread), we really need to figure out who we want to attack and when, in order to get a better idea of the NAP's we can agree to.
2metraninja has stated that we should have an army suitable for an attack around T150. This is obviously contingent on a lot of things, but pending any major surprises, this is when we should plan on going on our first offensive.
These are what I consider to be our top two priorities right now.
1. Avoid any wars before T150. We want to dictate the timing of the war, and we want to make sure we have peacefully settled all the land that we want before we're ready to attack.
2. Slow down RB's accelerating dominance in this game. If they keep up at this rate, they'll be too far advanced for even a coalition to threaten them by the time we're ready to take them on.
I think we should go ahead and let our NAP with RB expire on T130. We lose the element of surprise if we try to have a NAP with them until the turn that we're ready to attack. Better to let the NAP expire without any hostilities, so we can attack on T150 or T175 or T200 without giving RB that extra hint about when we do want to attack them. This also forces them to spend a little more Mfg on military instead of commerce and infrastructure. This works best if we can convince all RB's other neighbors to avoid any NAP extensions, especially CP.
I'm fine with a long-term NAP with WPC. If RB attacks them, we'll just be helping RB by joining the attack and diverting WPC's defenses away from the RB front. If at all possible, it would be great to tie a NAP together with a commitment that they do not attack the Germans again, since it would be much better if RB has to worry about them joining a potential dogpile.
I'm fine with a long-term NAP with the Germans. We have nothing at all to gain by not having a NAP with them, and it's better to keep them as friends and not push them into RB's arms.
I'm fine with a NAP up through T150 with UCiv. I still think the Spaniards would be a better target for us, but 2metra's the general, so if he wants to attack in this direction when we're ready, let's just make sure that they can't attack us before we're ready.
I would bring up a NAP again with the Spaniards, especially since we really do seem to be getting along very well with them right now. Maybe they trust us enough now to agree to this. They need all the friends they can get. If we won't attack the Spaniards until after we take care of UCiv, then this can probably be up to T170. The only thing I would say we should keep in mind, is that there is also a possibility that Poly could attack the Spaniards before us, in which case we'd probably want to leave ourselves free to invade from our side to take as many spoils as we can.
We definitely want a long-term alliance with CivPlayers. We can't threaten each other directly, and we are the two teams best situated to oppose RB. Hopefully they feel the same way, and they haven't already been buddying up with RB.
In my ideal world, we would establish a long-term alliance with CP, and begin coordinating a plan to eventually take down RB. Meanwhile, we would broker a long-term peace between WPC and the Germans. They don't need to do anything to join us against RB except avoid a NAP with them and avoid war with each other. This will mean RB will always need to defend against a potential invasion from the north. RB would be forced to expend resources towards defending all their borders, and wouldn't feel comfortable initiating any wars themselves. If we can do all this, then hopefully we can get ourselves in a situation to quickly take out the parts of UCiv that we want to annex, then eliminate the Spaniards, and finally move our focus to the west and RB.
The game advances and things start to be more complicated and the importance of strong diplomacy increases with each turn. I would like to see our treaties with other teams more strict and more treaty-like. We must try to forge strong treaties without place for shenanigans and non-said things where and as much it is possible.
Here is a quote of the SAP treaty which Team Amazon and Team Sirius had in the last MTDG2, so you can see what type of agreements I am talking about.
Can we adapt a treaty like this to send to our preferred allies/BFFs?
Sure we can. And not only we can, but we must!
I have only cleaned it up a bit and formatted it. Removed the technology trade part from the agreement. We may wish to add something about espionage, for instance using espionage as a tool to consentually steal technologies from one another. It should also be possible to adapt this into for instance including 3 teams, although this would require some work on the parts of the favoured resource trade points etc. I'm not sure how much really needs to be changed in this, as it is really a very good outline for a pact - but it has Team AMAZON written all over it, so we may want to rewrite it so it looks completely different (and less legalese).
How would we make it more our flavor? Is it the formatting with the numbers and subnumbers that make it AMAZONy? It's hard for me to unAMAZONify it as I am AMAZON, but if someone has suggestions that retain the clarity I am for that. We definitely will adapt it to the opponent in question, such as the religion section if both have religion. Perhaps we could give each other missionaries from our religions within a reasonable time frame.
Bringing this over from the SpAp thread (and added it to the OP of the State of the Empire thread) for its usefulness.
There is a convenient belt of expected non-contenders that almost surrounds RB and ourselves. Civforum.de and WPC fought a devastating early war, severely weakening both, Spanish Apolyton played a brutal opening, and UniversCiv just isn't that strong of a team by our reckoning. Inevitably, our mid-game diplomatic and military focus needs to be capitalizing on our weak neighbours as much as we can in order to develop a substantial lead over the stronger teams.
The biggest obstacles to doing this, if our projections are right, are CivPlayers and Apolyton. CP, who we've just met, is not as dangerous: they only neighbour Spanish Apolyton, and most SpAp goodies appear to be in their west, closest to us. Apolyton, on the other hand, presents a much more significant danger to our interests: they share both UCiv and SpAp as mutual neighbours. They stand to intervene in a war with either team by either helping them defend themselves or by joining us and taking some of the spoils with minimum effort.
In the west, Realms Beyond continues to be a huge threat, both long-term and to a lesser extent, short-term. With their powerful economy and huge population base, they could quickly overrun both WPC and CivForum.de within the next fifty turns, effectively running away with the game. Their well-played opening means that they could stay competitive and dangerous even if they don't attack anyone soon. Short-term, they present just as much a danger to us, with our previously neglected border quickly becoming a cause for tension. Even though they seem friendly, a couple of unexpected War Chariots could be... problematic.
Therefore, we need potential allies and counterweights against both Apolyton and Realms beyond. Conveniently, these are the same two teams: CivPlayers and CivFR. Both of these teams have higher scores than us, and demographic evidence suggests that both of these teams have both been very successful in the early game. I really do believe that establishing solid, trusting, honest relationships and possibly even military alliances with these two teams is critical to our interests. We should actively seek out good relations (and contact with CivFr) as soon as possible.
Good analyze, Bows. Will comment on it more tomorrow. Just slight correction about CP. They are not on top of us score-wise anymore as of few turns already
I concur with the analysis. What critical thing right now is a) if RB successfully goes to war in the upcoming 50 or so turns, and if so, b) we can organize a coalition to stop them pretty well immediately. Even if they don't start to run away we'll want that coalition, so I'd place a high priority on meeting the others. Even Poly, because they'd still be good ally material for the purposes of such a coalition, even if they're the next Big Bad on our list.
Revision v.0.3 of CFC current working draft for Pacts with an allied team
I think this agreement - shortened and edited to leave the most essential things we would like to have deal about with a possible desirable ally. I removed anything which can be controversial or may seems too binding to this possible ally of us, while putting clause for espionage and clause for preventing of gifting military units to third party which we might not want they to receive. (remedies the possible problem/exploit where nation A have NAP with nation B and they just produce huge army and gift it to nation C so nation C can defeat nation A without even giving a chance to nation A to get revenge on nation B without having to break its word.)
This must be the deal we propose to nations, which cooperation we truly desire and want to rely on. Like CP at the moment.
To RB we must propose way shorter agreement.
Please call an immediate election for a new team diplomat as I no longer want the position.
Separate names with a comma.