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Foreign Policy and General Diplomacy

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by Caledorn, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    In the last MTDG tech trading was on. This guaranteed a situation where teams would enter into to tech trading alliances. The incentives to cooperate fully and freely with tech trading partners and the disincentives for not cooperating were hardwired into the game due to the tech trading mechanic.

    This game is different. Without the tech trading mechanic on things are much more fluid. Tech sharing is no longer the overarching driver for diplomacy. So cooperation and alliances will be much more situational and can change quickly.

    The point I was trying to make was that using the last game as a template for the diplo in this game can be dangerous since the basic parameters for this one are different.

    Now i'm in agreement that we should continue to cultivate our friendship with RB and try to establish good relations with every team we meet. But we need to keep an open mind and be prepared in case things don't work out with RB. We very well may decide down the road they are too powerful and need to be stopped. Or they might stay lukewarm with us despite our best efforts.

    So we should be careful about giving RB more than we need to. Telling them our diplo plans with WPC in the post where we announce we have met them is just way too much.
     
  2. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    I agree with CavScout about the fluid nature of the alliances where no tech trading is included.

    Basically, you want NAPs with those who you can out-tech and out-grow. I was suspecting this, and now the game shows this clearly that RB are not amongst those :)
     
  3. Aivoturso

    Aivoturso King

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    Not to mention that there was a small ocean gap separating every team's home island from a central land mass. Teams could get to the central continent but not attack each other before Astronomy. So early rushes or any other sneaky business to even the odds were not possible. Combine that with tech trading and the first part of the game becomes effectively a popularity vote where two teams can be voted out of the game without any chance to win.
    :goodjob: Well said, sir. In this game a minority alliance of, say four competent teams having some geopolitical advantage can well beat the rest five.
     
  4. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    I would like to try formulate what we would like as diplomatic situation.

    1. In the best possible scenario, we will be able to out-tech and out-grow each and everyone, while having long and solid NAPs with them. The other teams concede to us seeing they could not stop us and they cant attack us either - being it because we are too strong, or because they are bound with their word. Or we win by score in 2050AD. Or we shot for the stars and colonize Alpha Centaury first.

    2. In the second best scenario, we tech to crucial military technology (HAs, knights, cuirrassiers, rifles, MGs+infantries) first and manage to conquer fast and clean one of our neighbor, while having long and stable NAPs with the others, which will give us time to use the conquered territory to skyrocket our commerce/food/production and become invincible to possible assaults from the other, who would want to bring the leader down.

    3. Third favorable scenario is where we could not out-tech significantly any of our neighbors to conquer them, but manage to create local number advantage - 2 vs 1, 3 vs 1, 3 vs 2, etc which will allow us and our allies to win a war with sheer numbers advantage. Then we divide the spoil and look for other possible favorable scenario - 1 or 2. If none are possible, rinse and repeat number 3 until we are able to fulfill 1 or 2.

    Those are the mainstays of the FFA games as I know them. Three easy steps, now we must just execute them. :)
     
  5. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    Thanks Cav Scout, that is a significant difference and well worth pointing out. We will have to be more cautious but lets also keep in mind a strong alliance can still have significant benefits without tech trading. Religion, corporations and information can be shared. Units can be gifted and upgraded so maybe allies can specialize with different research paths or in a three way alliance we can concentrate EP's and all steel techs from each other.

    A NAP is a good start, but the pay off from good diplomacy can take us much further even in this game.
     
  6. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    I had not thought about unit gifting and upgrading - that's rather clever.
     
  7. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    Very good post, cav scout. :) I would just like to state that I wrote that draft knowing that there would be reactions, and that the draft would be modified. My thought behind it was to create discussion within the team, and indeed we got a very strong debate out of it.

    Also, yours is also a very good post, 2metraninja. You have nailed down the goals of diplomacy perfectly in that short text. :goodjob:
     
  8. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    I just have to correct this misconception that things will be substantially different with diplomacy because tech trading is off. The reason certain diplomatic approaches are favorable has very little to do with the game settings, and much more to do with human psychology. There is just a proper way to deal with people that encourages loyalty and cooperation and another way, which does not.

    Indeed 2metra and I have been dominant as allies in games where tech trading is off as well as in games where it is on... It really doesn't matter much TBH... Sound play and strong-open-co-operative alliances always win the day regardless of tech trading ON/OFF. The "tech trading is off so the diplomatic approach that worked in past games won't work here just cause tech-trading is off" argument is a bit of a canard, frankly. :rolleyes:

    We should share SOME of our diplo plans with WPC with RB and ask them for their thoughts so we can see what they say (and more importantly, what they don't say).
     
  9. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    Just saw that someone trying to log into our Gmail account from Western Australia was denied. I think I was able to confirm that it was a valid login attempt, so it should recognize whoever it was that tried to get on, and allow you access next time you try.
     
  10. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    That was probably CH. :)
     
  11. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    Is the ambassador for UCiv around?
     
  12. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    That's me I believe. Reporting for duty. :salute:

    Just so you guys know, Hurricane Sandy is coming our way tonight, and while it doesn't seem too serious, a serious power outage is a real possibility. So please, don't panic if I don't log in tomorrow.
     
  13. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Maybe you could exercise your negotiating skills this way? :)
     
  14. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    I like that one! :lol:

    Maybe it's a metaphor for our dealings with Spanish Apolyton? :mischief:
     
  15. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Hahah.. was thinking in the same direction.
     
  16. Aivoturso

    Aivoturso King

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    I just had a bit of a brain wave. So far at least I have made an assumption that Spanish and WPC are looking for a trouble due to their civ & leader selection. But what if this is not true? Both teams' selections are also very suitable for REX as well I believe. Having an early UU that can keep barbarians at bay (Dog Soldier) or move rapidly where needed (Impi) makes barbarians much less of a problem early on. Zulu is especially suitable for REX due to cheap -20% discount for maintenance from Ikhanda. However, I'm not sure if any of this has any impact on how we should deal with these guys. Especially due to the closeness of the Spanish Apo and their aversion to a NAP we should be ready for them at any moment.

    This gives me an idea. Does anyone know that if a UU is gifted, does it retain its unique powers afterwards? If they do, we have a very powerful bargaining chip that we have not yet accounted for at all. A Fast Worker would make a very valuable gift indeed. Obviously it would also be a gift not given lightly as well.
     
  17. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Sure it does. ;)

    And yes, fast workers are amongst the most valued UUs to be traded around.

    But make no mistake, Spaniards are built to fight. And fight early. Boadicea is terrible leader otherwise. One more thing (somewhat practical psychology) - they call themselves when loging to play "Boa" Not Spanish, not Mexico, not Conquistadores, or not even Amigos. They call themselves Boa. When someone emphasizes on something, it is important for him. The important thing about Boa is she can produce awfully strong units. STR2+shock axes after winning only one fight with 1 warrior? No problem for the CHA/AGG Boa.
     
  18. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    Hell yes. One game, I was losing badly to my dad. Him: Willem, Me: Stalin, Last AI left: Genghis Khan. He was going after the Mongols, and I needed Genghis Khan to last long enough to vote for me in the UN - only way left I'd win.
    Boy, was my dad pissed when he discovered the Mongols were fielding Cossacks.


    From what I've seen and heard of SPAP, they will fight. Only thing we can do is direct them elsewhere. With Axes.
     
  19. Bowsling

    Bowsling Deity

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    Or direct them elsewhere with Fast Workers? :deal:
     
  20. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    I think a deterrent might function better than Dane-geld.
     

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