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Foreign Policy and General Diplomacy

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by Caledorn, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    I hope you guys realize that for religious victory we need another team to vote for us and it would be considered highly unsportsmanlike as I understand it (the team basically didn't play for win at the point).

    the only thing that really can come up from this is shrine income...but considering the cost of missionary (which is 40 hammers if I remember right), the chance for failure if there is another religion couple of religions (let's make some estimate of at least 1/4 more missionaries needed making the cost 50 hammers) the fact of spreading the religion on our own will pay back after 50 turns + travel turns cost (which can vary between 5-10)...

    and then there is the cost of great prophet...

    there is a reason why religious strategy was abandoned for high level play like 4 years ago.

    AP is the easiest victory type in SP (I got that way deity small map victory), but I can't just see it to work here for us.

    Btw I checked the demographics screen and we are 5th in all important metrics...which is pretty mediocre...
     
  2. whb

    whb King

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    Daft thought but there is another possible use for it. If we need precisely one team to vote for us, then suddenly every team has a nuclear button to push -- beat 'em up too much and they'll vote us to victory. Which means the only way an "alliance of the majority" can form and selectively destroy those frozen out is if we're in it -- otherwise the target can push the button and end the game with a big ol' "Ha ha, we might not win but neither will you, suckers" flounce.

    (But actually in SP games, I tend to go for AP as a way to get cheap hammers into low production cities)
     
  3. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    OR after we build TAP we form big alliance against us to raze the AP city... it's actually usually easiest solution to the annoying thing.
     
  4. RegentMan

    RegentMan Deity

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    Eh while a religious victory would be a nifty thing to pull off here, I think we should focus on the more realistic victories- domination and space. Nothing wrong with imagination, but let's not get too excited about something we more than likely cannot pull off.
     
  5. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    :agree:
     
  6. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    It is true, although if AP is not destroyed, then nothing is solved - than the world has to fight new owner.

    I am actually all for long-term alliance with RB - if we are in such an alliance - and say are at #2 position - then the teams below us would have to fight us to solve mostly RB's problem.

    I think everybody agree that pulling religious victory would be very difficult/bordering on impossible. But that also means that we should not face such vicious opposition after building it. AP is a legitimate economic building - every religious building with it gives us 2 :hammers:. So we can argue we should be allowed to leverage our SPI treat the same way eg creative leaders would use their own, through cheap libraries. And it would give us upper hand in diplomacy, if other civs would like to join AP religion.

    I think we can argue convincingly that if we build AP in our main religion (you normally have an un-used region just for quick AP win) it should be considered peaceful economic device, especially that we would let anybody interested join. If the other civs would spread it to lessen the risk, it will be great for our economy. The only realistic backdoor I see to religious victory is that vassals have to vote for their masters, unless they are candidate themselves. But anyway spreading our religion to all the civs - and them not actively trying to get rid of it - is biggest hurdle.

    I agree that this is very difficult to pull through - I was mostly trying to open discussions on another ideas - what do we do if we are not a leader anytime soon?

    Do we want to supplement cottage economy with religious economy?

    Do we think we can achieve diplomatically a situation in which us building AP will not end in others civs attacking us? Since everybody seems to agree that achieving religious victory is a fantasy, they should not be that worried, right? Of course, to even try it we would have to have at least mid-term NAPs with most dangerous rivals
     
  7. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    So what do we do about it? RB's score is probably a bit inflated by land-grabbing through Stonehedge but they do seem to beat us in most important areas. How do we plan to change that? (Other than waiting for RB to voluntarily committing suicide the way team Sirius did in previous game)?
     
  8. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    It is not completely true - I understand that as in SP, our potential vassals would have to vote for us. So you can call it exploit, too - but I don't think it is. It is the same what happened in recent RB game, when Sulla's team misunderstand mechanics of cultural victory. I see it as similar to ETT, that in a sense was against Sirius interests, but Sirius entered it willingly so nobody complained.

    The other possibility is what 2metra pointed out - a team about to loose, that still can pick a winner - and have revenge on their attackers.

    We can also propose an alliance to a weaker team - helping them to better overall place - I am not sure how sportmanlike it is, since the advantage we offer them is within this game, should be OK (e.g. helping somebody not to be in the last place in exchange for helping us to win)? In a sense, it is how all these alliance work, although normally things are not so transparent
     
  9. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    I like the Religious Economy idea as a supplement. The "leveraging the SPI trait" argument seems particularly good - heck, if it'll make others feel secure we can include a clause in our agreements that "NAP is null and void if we are the residents of the AP and propose religious victory".

    It seems a safe way to leverage the AP while avoiding a big-ass target on us.
     
  10. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    Yeah, I agree. It seems that pulling sneaky AP win is completely impossible - I was toying with an idea of hiding it in a plain sight, simply going for the religious economy, which should be not bad anyway. Religious victory is definitely not something we can plan and execute - it is more like we will lie conditions, and if we are very lucky - and most importantly well-prepared - if the stars align for ourselves, we will grab it.

    So the question for now is - is going religious economy (with AP) to dangerous for us? Can we work through diplomacy to make it OK? We can -truthfully - say that even our team thinks religious victory is not possible. If opponents will try to fight us peacefully - through spreading AP religion - great for us. We will also gain initiative in diplomacy - for better or worse
     
  11. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    LOL!!! Nice one, Talons :D
     
  12. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    I was thinking about spreading religion either through missionaries that our allies would somehow compensate us for (currently only possible in units) or through shrine. With shrine, I would argue that if we want to try religious economy, it will be worth it.

    I agree that playing with an AI religious path is not very tempting.

    The problem is what we do if our rivals seem to all follow essentially our strategy - but are essentially a bit better at it than we currently?

    I think 5th place is probably little worse than actual - and we are slowly edging up - algough RB's position is worrying me :-( In the previous game, Blumbuz of team Sirius suddenly acting crazy - and starting a war without consulting even with his team, if I remember - won the game for team Amazon. But if RB team is as disciplined as some of you reported, something like this is not likely to happen :-(
     
  13. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    We are crouching tiger now :D When we rise we will be good I guess. If this gives anyone even the slightest of relief, I almost never start as the score leader so early in any of my games and yet I laugh last at the end.
     
  14. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    So far, nobody is very keen on dogpiling RB. According to your logic, early leader in MP game would automatically loose. I do not know MP history, but I do not think it is that simple. I would actually bet than more often than not they would slowly run away from the pack and finally become so powerful nobody can threaten them anymore. And RB for sure is well aware of this risk and doing everything they can to avert it.
     
  15. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    So how are you getting ahead? Sword persuasion?
     
  16. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    We have to be careful here - best have some cool-off turns. And it is still not clear to me if we should mention it - but seems that mentioning it might be actually good - no reason to attack us. I was actually thinking about saying we will not do it during NAP.

    Needs a lot of thoughts, though. How early we should announce we consider building AP? (competition) Also AP proposal have rigid voting schedule, ideally we should try to time them with our NAPs somehow.

    And I think missionaries that early in the game - should earn us a good price? I would tell our allies, that to get them we have to follow relatively unattractive tech path, build monasteries/tech monotheism and run OR, build them, etc - so they deserve their weigh in gold - or rather in Dog Soldiers or Impis at that point

    Also trying to sell missionaries should make our allies less suspicious that giving missionaries away - that would be certainly a weird thing to do
     
  17. Maga_R

    Maga_R Has quit civ

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    That was the whole idea from the beginning! I mean, religious supplement to our standard strategy.

    I agree that the religious victory thing is too difficult and unpredictable to bet big on it. Although I do not deny that speculating about it is is the fun factor for me. Moreover, if we are prepared and "once in a blue moon" chance will occur, we will be able to grab it.

    Also if we will be as deftly diplomatically as some of you in previous games, we should be able to create safe environment for us to pursue religious economy. An we may complicate others plans - they will have to make difficult decisions how to react to our plans, etc. Although he have to make sure we will have agreements in place ensuring peaceful borders at least mid-term
     
  18. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    Well, good. This is one way we can differentiate ourselves from the others.
     
  19. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    it is very tough to pay back the initial investment which is not that cheap as you would assume.

    that's why it was abandoned as a strategy at the time I was coming to this forum back after long time. that's like 2-3 years ago.

    if you talk about religious economy I assume you talk about

    1) spreading religion to each city (assume cca 50 hammers on average for mish cost)
    2) building temple (we're spiritual another 40 hammers)
    3) building monastery (that is i think 60 hammers)
    4) building TAP (that is what 400/1.25 true hammers?)
    5) most probably UoS (you need paper, stone)
    6) most probably Spiral Minaret (divine right - dead end tech)

    7) Monasteries obsolete on scientific method (which I assume will be teched due to physics)

    the costs are very steep...
    shrine gives only 1 gpt... if we assume 1 gpt = 1 hammer then just spreading the religion is paid back in 50 turns...

    TAP would make the buildings pay back sooner thus I usually abuse TAP buildings since I usually spread TAP religion in SP anyway (safety > hammers), but usually only either if
    1) I have some time before cuirs break out which whips
    2) I aim for space race since otherwise i am like almost 100% positive whipping 1 more cuirs instead of temple+monastery will mean another AI capitulated sooner...

    the fact of building TAP and its initial investment makes the payback even more trickier since it puts another hammer cost on every city.

    Spiral Minaret is almost never built by human...

    UoS very rarely since it comes from paper and in theory when you finish paper you open education bulb and either you need to invest into OU or you're on research pedal building wealth/research to Lib->nat or Lib->mt for break out.
     
  20. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    Well. If the team comes down on your side I am unable to argue.
     

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