RegentMan
Deity
Ah! My bleeding eardrums!
Foreign Policy: RealmsBeyond
- Thread starter talonschild
- Start date
Caledorn
Emperor
*blush* Thank you for pointing that one out. I copy/pasted your suggestion with a minor modification.Latest Draft
Edit: I did some other modifications to it as well. Just polish really, since I have the time anyways.
I agree with grant on this one, I think it's good to define the terms of the agreement when we can, as we did with the oasis thing. If that's what we mean is a good thing, then state so. At this point in time it's better to be proactive than reactive.
This is exactly why we should keep the part where we keep the part about sharing the details of the contact as well. I think this is an excellent opportunity test the waters and try to gauge honesty of RB's intentions to work with us without being too obvious about it.
A small improvement suggestion considering this part is to add a small, neutral request for affirmation of the terms (addendum bolded):
"Our suggestion, to get a clearly defined agreement, is that when one of our teams meet a new team we notify one another what team we met, the turn we met them, and in what direction they are (thus making it easier for eachother to meet up with those teams). Does this sound OK to you?"
Caledorn
Emperor
With 3 people chiming in that they'd like to add back the specifics, and myself seeing both sides, I think I'm going to add it back in.
When I read the draft a bit closer, this statement: "As we're going to notify each other about contact with other teams, we think it would make sense for us to send our scouting units in different directions. What's your thoughts on this?" seems a bit out of context without specifying the deal too, so if I were to not add it back in I think I need to rewrite that.
I won't send our answer for 5-6 hours yet, so if there are other opinions, please do contribute! I've readded the statement in the draft, specifying that it is undecided and that more opinions is welcome.
Latest Draft
When I read the draft a bit closer, this statement: "As we're going to notify each other about contact with other teams, we think it would make sense for us to send our scouting units in different directions. What's your thoughts on this?" seems a bit out of context without specifying the deal too, so if I were to not add it back in I think I need to rewrite that.
I won't send our answer for 5-6 hours yet, so if there are other opinions, please do contribute! I've readded the statement in the draft, specifying that it is undecided and that more opinions is welcome.
Latest Draft
YossarianLives
Deity
The latest draft looks excellent to me.
Caledorn
Emperor
And off it's sent, with the specified proposal for a deal re-added.
Message sent
Edit:
Just as an FYI: I decided not to add that suggestion because I thought it would be best if we sound as assertive as possible. We let them define what the NAP meant, so now it's our turn to make a definition of an agreement. I suspect it's going to be a bit back and forth between our teams who comes up with definitions for the agreements we make with them, so we might as well show them that we mean business.
Message sent
Edit:
Just as an FYI: I decided not to add that suggestion because I thought it would be best if we sound as assertive as possible. We let them define what the NAP meant, so now it's our turn to make a definition of an agreement. I suspect it's going to be a bit back and forth between our teams who comes up with definitions for the agreements we make with them, so we might as well show them that we mean business.
Caledorn
Emperor
I got an acknowledgement from scooter via gtalk, and we exchanged some pleasantries and talked a bit. Most of it was just chit chat, but I'm posting the important bits. Note that my use of smileys is part of how I talk to people via IM - I just like smileys 
Also note that it seems as if scooter has been given pretty wide allowances for what he is allowed to say by the team, which I read as that they are sincere in their statements about cooperating with us (accepting the IM part was definitely a good idea).
Anyways, here is it: Chat Transcript
Some small comments that I forgot to put in here initially:
* I decided to leave out the fact that we already knew they had lost that warrior, in accordance to what we have been discussing about keeping a bit quiet about the skills of our demohacking team. It was certainly nice to get an outright statement about it though. It may have been a devious scheme to test our demohacking capabilities of course, in which case we failed at this point, but that would seem very strange as we could just as easily have lied if I had responded that we already suspected/knew.
* I also decided to answer straightforwardly, but unintentionally vague, on account of the barbs/animals question. Truth to be told, I can't remember how many we killed. I think it was two..
* When he asked about the water, I saw no harm in answering that they would find the salt water body south of the oasis (as they will already be heading that way soon to confirm the oasis and see that it is an okay spot for the border agreement), and was immediately rewarded for doing so by him telling me that they had found the body of water west of them.
* I never had the time to respond to his last statement about "similar surroundings" as I was barely done typing my good night sentence when we wrote it. And before I had the time to type anything else, he typed the last sentence and logged off. I didn't really want to respond to that statement at this point, so I have to admit he did me a huge favour by logging out at that point, saving me having to come up with something appropriately vague. Typing on a touch phone device gives me an excellent excuse for why I don't respond too quickly. 
Also note that it seems as if scooter has been given pretty wide allowances for what he is allowed to say by the team, which I read as that they are sincere in their statements about cooperating with us (accepting the IM part was definitely a good idea).Anyways, here is it: Chat Transcript
Some small comments that I forgot to put in here initially:
* I decided to leave out the fact that we already knew they had lost that warrior, in accordance to what we have been discussing about keeping a bit quiet about the skills of our demohacking team. It was certainly nice to get an outright statement about it though. It may have been a devious scheme to test our demohacking capabilities of course, in which case we failed at this point, but that would seem very strange as we could just as easily have lied if I had responded that we already suspected/knew.
* I also decided to answer straightforwardly, but unintentionally vague, on account of the barbs/animals question. Truth to be told, I can't remember how many we killed. I think it was two..
* When he asked about the water, I saw no harm in answering that they would find the salt water body south of the oasis (as they will already be heading that way soon to confirm the oasis and see that it is an okay spot for the border agreement), and was immediately rewarded for doing so by him telling me that they had found the body of water west of them.
* I never had the time to respond to his last statement about "similar surroundings" as I was barely done typing my good night sentence when we wrote it. And before I had the time to type anything else, he typed the last sentence and logged off. I didn't really want to respond to that statement at this point, so I have to admit he did me a huge favour by logging out at that point, saving me having to come up with something appropriately vague.
Typing on a touch phone device gives me an excellent excuse for why I don't respond too quickly. Even if it was a hidden effort to gauge our demohacking abilities it is also possible that we passed the test. In the best case scenario RB will at some point be suggesting sharing demographics thinking that they will benefit much more from it than we will. In any case, when looking for allies demohacking abilities is not the most important skill if your team already has it.
That chat looked pretty friendly to me. They volunteered the saltwater which is to their W, far away from where our warrior is exploring. The bit about losing their warrior didn't seem like a test as I read it.
Not quite sure why he was asking how many animals we'd killed -- I think that must have been a proxy question for working out if we had another exploring warrior out (given they can see this warrior's experience level).
Our answer might mean they assume we're exploring the other way too and will meet another neighbour soon. (Two animals dead, but only 1XP notched on the warrior they can see) I guess the question for them is whether we'll meet our common neighbour first.
Not quite sure why he was asking how many animals we'd killed -- I think that must have been a proxy question for working out if we had another exploring warrior out (given they can see this warrior's experience level).
Our answer might mean they assume we're exploring the other way too and will meet another neighbour soon. (Two animals dead, but only 1XP notched on the warrior they can see) I guess the question for them is whether we'll meet our common neighbour first.
YossarianLives
Deity
Can they see Thunderfall's Exp points? I thought we can see promotions on other teams' units, but not experience. I could be wrong about this.
Since there's been discussion about what we should reveal concerning our Demo-Hacking abilities, I should point out that I have started playing in a Demo-Game on RB, where I have kind of fallen into the Demo-Hacking role. I am not spending as much time on that game, so I am not coming up with the kind of detailed analysis that I've been doing for this game, but at least some of their team members are probably aware that we at least have the knowledge of how to read the demo-screen, civstats, etc. Actually, they might think our skills are somewhat limited because I haven't been doing as much on that team, but I thought I should throw it out there in case it makes a difference to what we say and how we word things.
Also, in case anyone is concerned about me playing a game on their site, 2metraninja is also on my team, so he can keep me in check!
Since there's been discussion about what we should reveal concerning our Demo-Hacking abilities, I should point out that I have started playing in a Demo-Game on RB, where I have kind of fallen into the Demo-Hacking role. I am not spending as much time on that game, so I am not coming up with the kind of detailed analysis that I've been doing for this game, but at least some of their team members are probably aware that we at least have the knowledge of how to read the demo-screen, civstats, etc. Actually, they might think our skills are somewhat limited because I haven't been doing as much on that team, but I thought I should throw it out there in case it makes a difference to what we say and how we word things.
Also, in case anyone is concerned about me playing a game on their site, 2metraninja is also on my team, so he can keep me in check!
Caledorn
Emperor
And me too
Go Team Gillette!And no they cant see EXP points enemy of units, just promotions.
One other thing worth mentioning. The value of honesty in diplomacy far outweighs the value of being vague and "clever", or trying to trick the other guy or hide stuff from him. The best approach is to answer honestly, and when you can't or don't want to answer honestly, just acknowledge their question for what it is and politely tell them that you are not ready to (or don't have permission to) talk about that yet. We will get much more respect and cooperation from honesty.
YossarianLives
Deity
I am very pleased with the great work the diplo team has done here! Despite mutual suspicions on both sides, I think we've really gotten a strong foundation of friendship with RB now. This makes me feel very optimistic about our chances in this game.
I really appreciate that they are working with us to keep Thunderfall safe, but I don't like the route they have us taking. Their suggestion of 6-9-7-9 actually confirms that 9-8-9 is also a safe path. I would prefer to do this. Do we think we can move 9 this turn without taking a diplo hit? We can definitely follow their suggestion for the following two turns.
I'm glad they agreed to our info-sharing proposal with no changes. That's a great sign. As far as further map sharing, I think it's safe to tell them that their East-Southeast does not mirror our East-Southeast. I don't think we need to get any more specific than that quite yet, though.
RB Demo-Game 1 Spoiler:
I really appreciate that they are working with us to keep Thunderfall safe, but I don't like the route they have us taking. Their suggestion of 6-9-7-9 actually confirms that 9-8-9 is also a safe path. I would prefer to do this. Do we think we can move 9 this turn without taking a diplo hit? We can definitely follow their suggestion for the following two turns.
I'm glad they agreed to our info-sharing proposal with no changes. That's a great sign. As far as further map sharing, I think it's safe to tell them that their East-Southeast does not mirror our East-Southeast. I don't think we need to get any more specific than that quite yet, though.
RB Demo-Game 1 Spoiler:
Spoiler :
YossarianLives
Deity
So, any thoughts on a response to RB? I guess there isn't a lot in their last message that actually requires a reply, so maybe no further communication is necessary until we meet another team. They did ask us if their south mirrored our south, and the answer is no, but I think that was the only direct question in their message.
talonschild
Drive-By NESer
We should at least send that, and maybe ask a question of our own. Suggestions?
Well, I definitely see some mirroring of resources going on. It's not perfect, but it's fairly close. No real evidence of geography being mirrored yet, aside from the saltwater lakes(?) to the west of each of us.
Maybe we can ask if they've seen any solid mountain ranges? Like the one we've seen off to our east. If that's not revealing state secrets.
Maybe we can ask if they've seen any solid mountain ranges? Like the one we've seen off to our east. If that's not revealing state secrets.
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