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Foreign Policy: RealmsBeyond

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by talonschild, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    WPC is, of course, even less afraid of early war. Though against War Chariots they might think twice.
     
  2. grant2004

    grant2004 Citizen

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    Hmm, I'm interested in RB asking for our take on WPC. I wonder if it would be diplomatically smart to tell them that WPC has been very friendly and forthcoming with information, and that we consider them a good group to work with. It may be less subtle than I'm intending, but the idea is to make RB aware that highly communicative partners are considered valuable by us, in hopes that RB might choose to share some more map information.
     
  3. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    No, that sounds good. I didn't fully pick up on the subtext until you explained it. And it is most certainly true.
     
  4. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    Other players have mentioned this and I don't get it, how does mistrust between RB and WPC benefit us?

    It was mentioned in another thread that with WPC on tundra we may not have a 3x3 grid like we thought. It sounds crazy but could it be a 3 continent map or something really unconventional. My point is it may be a good idea to find some other civs or get a better idea of the map before we start deciding who isn't going to be in our winners club.
     
  5. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    True - I think the criterion was "Pre-Astronomy contact". No reasn plako couldn't have given us separate landmasses with only Coast between.
     
  6. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    It benefits us insomuch as we stay the first in their respective hearts and they don't start to get any ideas about ganging up together against us.

    Now i'm not saying that we foment a full on war between RB and WPC. Much better for us to encourage goodwill across the board. It would be great if all three teams could cooperate and be friends at this stage in the game. But it benefits us if RB and WPC have some reservations about each other. We should strive to be the "pivot" team in any multi-team interactions.
     
  7. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    Right. The more they antagonize each other, the less they antagonize us.
     
  8. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    Excellent explanation :)

    What I am wondering about is how we are going to be able to pull it off. If they get contact soon, they will initiate discussions on their own, without us in the equation. Any suggestions? We may be a bit pressed for time here, as if either of them have scouts available they may meet eachother within 10 turns..
     
  9. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Well said, Cav :goodjob: Being seen as a pivot and "biggest best friend forever" is very very important in a game, where diplomacy and alliances can mean so much.

    Here is one possible way to achieve this before my second coffee for the day:

    We start and describe to RB our first impression of WPC as paranoid and unwelcome for not allowing us to come closer than 1 tile from their borders (which is not even entirely untrue, as this was the first thing we saw from them). Then we mention that some of us know some of the WPC guys, but unfortunately WPC have appointed unknown guy to be representing their team in their affairs with CFC, so we dont knew what to expect (one more truth). Then tell RB that we are afraid of WPC's choice of nation and leader (one more perfectly true thing), and then we mention we are somewhat disappointed we see the map is much more denser habituated than we though initially it would be (I for real have this feeling - I was hoping for a bit bigger map - as we are now, rushes or early land disputes are not out of the question). So, we basically say three perfectly true things, which once whispered to RB's ears, we hope will be as the seeds of the doubt which to find good soil and grow in to a monsters.

    To avoid the situation where RB tells to WPC once they met: "those CFC guys seems not to like or trust you much from their description" we may well discuss the things with WPC as of retrospect aspect, saying them a bit later but yet before RB and WPC meet: "Guys, we are so happy we are friends, as we were really afraid of meeting you knowing your scary choice of leader and civ (people like to be flattered and feel strong ;) ) and how close actually nations are spawned (they are indeed) and your initial request of us not closing your borders, that we though you are going to be hostile towards us. Having Proviisori as our contact initially surprised us as we know few players of WPC, but not Proviisori and we did not knew what to expect (this is flattering to them too, as they will think: see, we managed to surprise those guys and they cant read our intentions now). But we are glad that everything turned to be nice and we are happy that our relations are going so smooth as they are (which said 100 times will at the end become fact)

    This way, we tell only truths to both of them. And yet, the impressions and goals we achieve will be that RB will suspect WPC and at least initially start think of them as cold at the least, if not threat. Their whole tone and diplomacy will be inevitably influenced (negatively) by this.

    In the case that RB decide to test us and WPC and gain easy diplomacy benefits by telling WPC what we told RB about them (scared by civ and leader, close starts, unknown diplomat, etc) it will only do us a favor, as we had told our fears in advance to WPC and we look like honest and decent guys, while RB look like gossip girl trying to embroil CFC and WPC.
     
  10. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    Not bad. Not bad at all.
     
  11. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    See, this here is an excellent example of why I love team games, and this team in particular of course. ;) That is one heck of a devious plan, 2metra, and I am really impressed by the detail and consideration you've put into it. :D

    We have something to work with here, so I'll let my brain do it's job and will probably have a draft to RB ready for later today so the team can review it.
     
  12. 1889

    1889 Mayor of H-Marker Lake

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    Are you sure we aren't being too clever here guys? What if our plan works and WPC and RB don't trust eachother, then instead of a pivot we are the odd man out when they meet one of their neighbors. What if they try both try to form coalitions that include us but leave out RB/WPC?

    Mind games are fun but I'm not sure do they really serve our long term goals at this point with these two civs.
     
  13. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    It certainly would benefit us more should we be more isolated, lie if there were three continents.
     
  14. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    All the same, we could simply join the bigger side. Coalition wars work far better 6 on 3 than 5 on 4. (That said, pray the coalitions don't split evenly.)
    We can also build a coalition that includes both of them, with the intent of exploiting the distrust later.
    And if we are the first to meet other teams, we will have the diplomatic advantage in forming coalitions.
    If it comes down to picking sides, I suggest joining WPC, as RB is both more dangerous and less friendly.
     
  15. Aivoturso

    Aivoturso King

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    First decision we need to make is what is our master plan with our known rivals. Do we want to try for a strong three-party alliance with these guys or would we rather sow seeds of discord? Both approaches can serve us well.

    Personally I'd like to see RB and WPC at least a bit suspicious of each other. However, if we decide to go down the trouble maker line we have to be very, very cautious. This sort of diplomacy has potential to blow up in our faces in a spectacular fashion.

    What 2metra lined out could work unless RB or WPC decide to share our whole communication with the other team. In that case they can get the picture of what we were trying to achieve. I believe that what we do must be even subtler than what 2metra suggested. In my opinion our whole diplomacy should be formed to stand the day light. Optimally even if every message we ever sent to other teams would be shared in public forum, it should never be evident that we're trying to be manipulative or run any other underhanded schemes.

    Unfortunately, I don't yet have a counter suggestion on what to send to RB. Only a general idea of maybe not laying it on quite as thick as in 2metra's suggestion and give RB and WPC a good opportunity hate each other in their own accord.
     
  16. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    We'd move slower, certainly, but I suppose we have a year and a half. The trick would probably be to get enough in before they meet that the other efforts won't be futile.

    As for an overall plan, I really want to sow discord. Ideally, every team is mistrustful of every other, and we're the only solid alliance anyone has. We want the rest of the world at each other's throats. That way they won't be at ours.
     
  17. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    It's definitely in our interest to remain flexible but on good terms with everyone in these early turns, so that we have the ability to define our alliance once we have a better understanding of the map layout and where all the teams are located. I think one of the most important reasons to subtly sow seeds of distrust between WPC and RB is so that they both view us as the more reliable partner, in case we decide to leave one or the other outside of our alliance. If it turns out that all the teams are on the same landmass, then it will very likely be the case that we want RB, WPC and ourselves to form a strong 3-team (or more) alliance to keep us protected on (at least) two fronts.

    I think 2metra's brilliant suggestion gives us exactly the foundation we want where both teams will look to us as the pivot member of any three-way partnership, since they're not sure yet if they can trust the third team based on the concerns we are sharing with them. Also, it should help prevent WPC and RB forming an alliance without us.
     
  18. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Sun Tzu teaches us that if there are 2 strong kingdoms and a smaller one, none of the strong ones must attack the weaker one, as if he does so, the weaker will ask the other stronger kingdom to help and then the attacker is doomed. The strong must attack the other strong, because the smaller kingdom will not have courage to interfere.

    All this is speaking with symbols, but you get the idea. If we are looking for adversary it must be RB, not WPC.

    Edit: I am going to explain the downside of aligning with smaller nations too later on, but we will come to this IF WPC happens to be the smaller one. For now I am just comparing ambitions (you know RB are the current ISDG champion) and potential estimations.
     
  19. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Exactly.

    This.
     
  20. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    I agree with this. I have said this before and I will repeat... Do not get us into the lying, decieving business. We are a great group here but we must not forget that the other teams have plenty of smart perceptive guys too. We are not endowed with any special superpowers that make us smarter than anyone else. It is naieve to think we can trick the other teams on that large a scale.

    Our best bet is to be open and honest to both teams. The more open and honest we are, the more trust we will gain. As teams trust us more and more they will naturally begin to be see us as their BFFs:)

    Let the other teams hang themselves by trying to trick each other... They will begin to distrust each other on their own while we will be seen as the honest open friend that they can trust.

    Don't forget that we already have some suspicion surrounding us as the "Espionage" team. The last thing we need to do is raise a bunch of red flags with some grand deception and badmouthing behind peoples backs.

    cavscout is right that we want to be the "center" or "pivot" of any alliance. It puts us in a position of tremendous power. However, the way to get there is through genuineness, honesty, openness... NOT by lies deceptions, skulldugery and scheming.

    There will be plenty of time for dirty tricks in the endgame. Its not time for that yet.;) Build up a good reputation now that we can leverage for an advantage at the critical moment to win. Dont start the game off with establishing ourselves as a nest of vipers. (Let the "BlackAdders" jokes begin:p)
     

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