Foreign Policy: RealmsBeyond

[talonschild]

At least demand the free resources, yes.

But if we're leaning to no renewals, then saying nothing stikes me as the correct course.

 

[Aivoturso]

Two quick notes before I'm off to work:

Top priority now is to find out what CP would like to do. All dealings we ar willing to have with RB willl depend on that.

RB message implies that they don't have a strategic alliance with a neighbour yet. That either means that they are now only starting to get into diplo and for some reason prefer to work with us instead of CP (I'm assuming they are discounting WPC and Germans as long term allies as we are). Or they tried to get CP to work with them and they disagreed.

 

[2metraninja]

Well, well, well.. things are moving. I'll read and comment now.

 

[2metraninja]

Whatever we decide to do in terms of diplomacy, let's not delay settling the city. We need the Wines for Happy. We also need to get a Missionary here ASAP to combat RB's free culture from Stonehenge Obelisks. If this means that we say nothing to RB, well then I'd rather just say nothing to RB.

Problem with that is we need to know if they are going to give us Stone or they wont.

Spoiler :

Looking on this map, we can see that if we want to be sure to get Stone alone and not relying on RB's good will, we have to settle B3. We have Stone in our first ring and there is almost no power to take the stone culturally from us for the time being (they need something like 15-20 times more culture than us in their near cities to take 1-st ring tile). This location however have so many downsides, that we must strongly consider them and personally I am even ready to just give up the Stone to avoid those. Downsides from settling B3 are:
1. We settle on the RB cultural border. North from B3 there is already RB culture.
2. With B3 we get only Stone and dry Rice and unformable green tile in first ring. Plus 2 more green tiles when borders pop and nothing more. So-so city at best (besides it gives us Stone) which will grow slow, slow, slow, draining only maintenance and being almost impossible to defend.
3. Settling B3 (a bad city by itself) forces us to settle one more city in suboptimal place. With B3 not having a single Wine in its BFC, we will be forced to settle C1 instead of C2 just to claim those wines and not leave Wine to RB. and C1 is twice worse location for city than C2.

So here is my hope that we can use political levers to make RB promise us the Stone and we then settle our optimal B1 or B2 and then C2. (B1 could still compete for the Stone, but it requires Caste + running artists if we talk about the foreseeable (mid-term - around 30-50 turns) future and also them not insisting to fight our culture seriously.

 

[2metraninja]

I would say either A.) say nothing and settle immediately, or B.) ask if they'd lend us use of their resources and settle immediately.

So, we need to know if RB are going to promise us the stone for the duration of the NAP. If they agree to give us Stone, then great! We have Stone secured and we settle our cities optimal (B1 or even better B2 and C2). If they dont give us Stone, we then must decide do we get it with "force" (i.e. settling B3 and severely disadvantaging ourselves in terms of western city locations/growth), or we just give up the idea of having stone and just settle our best city locations (B1 or even better B2 and C2).

Thats why we have to come to agreement what we say to them and how we present our request for Stone. Do we increase the duration of the NAP, do we ask for another happy resource as compensation for their shady (and greedy) settling of A1.

 

[2metraninja]

Their Obelisks are how they got the Prophet for their Shrine, by the way. I wonder if they had a polluted Scientist / Prophet pool?

I think no. For me, they got their Priest from mixed 2GP/6GS points pool. They had the 2 GP points per turn from SH for quite long time, then they built library the fastest possible and run constantly 2 scientists for 6GS points a turn. I think they would not risking worsen their chance for a GS with more GP assigned. But they got unlucky and got GP instead of GS. Now they will have (or already did that)to build library in another city and run there pure GS points to get their GS for academy.

 

[2metraninja]

Lets ask for resources, I'm curious to see how they respond. And make sure we don't say anything about what we can give them, just ask for what we want and see what they say.

This is easiest achieved in my opinion by telling them our trust in their goodwill and our hopes for good cooperation with them in the future was shaken by them settling A1 without any conversation and we will have our spirits rest and feel compensated if they give us Stone and Spices (or whatever calendar happy they have and we lack) And to strengthen this, we can give them longer NAP.

 

[2metraninja]

If we are to send them a message the quickest way would be to use GTalk to get a feeling for what scooter initially thinks, followed up by an official mail after that. I suggest we do it that way if we are to ask.

BTW, I did not saw who signed their last message. Is it still scooter? Or he is busy/away? Or because this is proposal of higher political level, maybe someone of their high command did wrote that?

 

[Caledorn]

BTW, I did not saw who signed their last message. Is it still scooter? Or he is busy/away? Or because this is proposal of higher political level, maybe someone of their high command did wrote that?

It definitely looks like it's been written by scooter, but then again Yossarian has done an excellent job at impersonating me I think it is written by scooter though.

 

[2metraninja]

On that note, I strongly doubt they will agree to a deal for nothing. And I strongly doubt they feel any remorse or guilt about their city. On the contrary I am pretty certain they feel they have outplayed us and are now gloating a bit on how good players they are compared to us. Asking them for resources for free will most likely make them ridicule us in their forums, but it does lend a certain credibility to us behaving irrationally and unexpected though, as I am certain they don't expect us to look like we are begging at their door...

We cant do much to change their opinion if it is already bad opinion about us, than to act and behave in our best interest. Self-respect and self-confidence are contagious. When someone see we respect our own interests and we are not afraid to show this, they will consider respecting our interest too. Sam e with confidence. If we look confident, others will think we have reason for being so. Either way we will tell what we want and we will know what they think about us. So we can plan according to this. But I can bet 5 beers they will accept some form of reparation (being it Stone + Spices to us, or Stone + Spices + third happy for us giving them Wines, etc), only to have their NAP longer. They have plans, they dont want to compromise those with risking insecure border with us or outright hostile equally advanced (thus dangerous) neighbor to tie their hands and ruin their carefully crafted plans.

sounds like they have a spy in our forum... Or maybe they are just as smart (or smarter) as we and they read it exactly as as we do... who would have thought?

Absolutely it comes from thinking alike. It is just common game logic. See the date for their proposed NAP extension? Turn 175. Just how close it is to the turn 170 I plan/prognosis we will finish our second neighbor conquest? They have the same in their minds. Which gives us some advantage in them telling us their plans without us telling them ours and gives us levers to forewarn their victims. Also to leave them with the impression they are leading the game. They will say: "see - those guys dont even know why we propose t175, but they will agree in exchange for mere couple of resources as gifts.. Hope those gifts keep CFC warm when we have tripped our territory and be ready to come after them" Good thing is we want/know we will be in no worse position than them then

What they are thinking now is "Hmmm we screwed them... Why dont they say anything? Must be because they really like us and really want to be friends or they are furious and plotting against us quietly... Lets offer a closer friendship to find out where they stand."

Might be both ways. To me the fact they come to us tells us they do desire and they are ready for the deal. And when you are ready for something, you already have it done in your mind and you expect it to happen, you wont get turned down by some minor added costs as 2 resources.

Also, again they will underestimate us for believing they see our real feelings/capacity on this - we feel hurt and we ask for cheap present to get us back on the good side with them. Like treating a girl like whоre and then buy her flowers and everything is OK. You think "What a cheap girl. Good only for one thing and I will use her however I see fit." and in your mind she is cheap and not worth much and you continue to use her and generally underestimate her. Some time later, when you wake up in one beautiful sunny morning and all your bank accounts, expensive cars and all other stuff are gone for good with the supposedly dumb, cheap and submissive whоre which pride you though you can buy with cheap bouquet, then you know who is the fuсked up one for real.

or at least demand free resources as a "token of friendship".

"Token of friendship" or "compensation for your sin with A1" are just slight deviations on one and the same thing. "We want you to show us some respect and compensate us for your trespassing and restore our belief in your good will toward us"

But if we're leaning to no renewals, then saying nothing stikes me as the correct course.

Why would we want no renewal of NAP? Maybe to keep RB from conquering Germans and WPC? But then maybe while we build up pointless against each-other in a cold war situation with RB, Apolyton, CP and CivFR conquer Germans, WPC and SpAp and what we get? CFC and RB at size 1, while all the other serious competitors double than us size? I think this was subject to different (and maybe very long) discussion.

 

[2metraninja]

Top priority now is to find out what CP would like to do. All dealings we ar willing to have with RB willl depend on that.

I am afraid it wont work great as I expected. Yesterday I tried to chat to their turnplayer Filon, telling him we met in-game at last, but he only said: "Foreign affairs are handled by Dece." and thats it. He might be busy at work, as it was in the day, or they are not still decided what to do with us.

RB message implies that they don't have a strategic alliance with a neighbour yet. That either means that they are now only starting to get into diplo and for some reason prefer to work with us instead of CP (I'm assuming they are discounting WPC and Germans as long term allies as we are). Or they tried to get CP to work with them and they disagreed.

To me this sounds like they dont have alliances with anyone too. Or they have medium-turn NAPs with those who they consider dangerous and now they are making inquiries to see who they can rely on for the longer period so they can make mid-long term plans/strategy. It is common practice to send envoys/offers to all possible allies/victims and see what deal can get with them and then choose the best/most convenient combo for them. Which still makes perfect sense for us wanting to bargain. People like to bargain and think they got the better part of the deal.

 

[Sommerswerd]

After reading all your thoughts, what about something like this to RB?

Hi RB friends,

We like your NAP proposal but we want to add a couple things. We will urgently need some Stone soon and we are also nearing our happy cap. Since you guys have a surplus spice and will soon have surplus stone, we would like your assurance that you will gift us those resources for the duration of the NAP. We will be getting a bunch of wine resources soon which we will of course share with you. If this is OK with you then consider our NAP extended to turn 170 as soon as you confirm.

Your CFC pals

I intentionally do not complain about their city, but very gently imply that we are holding off on a NAP with them because we wanted the stone that they took (stole). I am betting that they are not willing to go to war (or refuse a NAP extension) over stone. I also indirectly tell them about our plans to settle in the ithsmus so we are being the responsible ones, to contrast their poor form of settling with no warning whatsoever. That way the point is made that we reconize that they screwed up in faling to inform us, without accusing them directly.

This way, we get to continue to hold the diplo faux-pas over their head. If we make the resource gift about the aggressive settlement, then we have cashed that in for so cheap... as 2metra says we make ourselves a cheap screw settling for a couple resources to forgive their sins.

As some have already said the insult and error on their part was HUGE... practically backstabbing dealbreaking IMO. So we can come back to the well later when there is something bigger to be had, something more controversial at stake... THEN we bring up how insulted and cheated we felt and how we swallowed our pride and sacrificed for the good of the friendship...blah, blah, blah. Then they will have to give in or give us the moral high ground to stab them in the belly.

 

[2metraninja]

This way, we get to continue to hold the diplo faux-pas over their head. If we make the resource gift about the aggressive settlement, then we have cashed that in for so cheap... as 2metra says we make ourselves a cheap screw settling for a couple resources to forgive their sins.

This is how they will think. And they will underestimate us. We know they cant buy us. We know they will pay dearly. Just not now. Not now.

I like your mild tone and soft asking, but I still think we must bring the issue with their settlement.

Maybe not complain, but mention it. Like: "We would like for the duration of the NAP to have the Stone which we were going to get with a city of ours on the isthmus as we informed you." Way better and true than some urgent need for Stone.

 

[YossarianLives]

Looking on this map, we can see that if we want to be sure to get Stone alone and not relying on RB's good will, we have to settle B3.

I'm not sure why we would still be considering B3 as a legitimate spot for our next city. I thought that when RB settled our A1 spot, we agreed we would need to grab B1 and C2 as our next two cities (or was that just in my head?). B3 is such a poor site anyways, and it would be swamped with RB's Obelisk and Religion culture, that it would not be worth the stone, imho.

Considering the newest developments, I actually like Sommerswerds message a lot, with 2metraninja's adjustment:

Hi Scooter,

We like your NAP proposal but we want to add a couple things. We were going to settle the stone with a city of ours on the isthmus as we informed you. We are also nearing our happy cap. Since you guys have a surplus spice, we would like your assurance that you will gift us Stone + Spice for the duration of the NAP. We will be getting a bunch of wine resources soon which we will of course share with you. If this is OK with you then consider our NAP extended to turn 170 as soon as you confirm.

Caledorn

If RB agrees to this, then I would bet that they will set their sights on WPC / Germans (just how we're setting our sights on UCiv / SpAp). We need to warn them of this, and use it to try to encourage them to remain at peace and prepare for the inevitable war against RB.

 

[2metraninja]

I'm not sure why we would still be considering B3 as a legitimate spot for our next city.

B3 gives us the Stone for sure. We need to have one ace in our cards if it comes to that ("We can have the stone if we want, but we prefer to have normal relations and normal settling with you guys") Otherwise I do agree that B3 is terrible place. Not because it will be swarmed with culture (it can hold OK) but because it is poor with resources and forces us to settle C1 instead of the way better C2.

We need to warn them of this, and use it to try to encourage them to remain at peace and prepare for the inevitable war against RB.

Very good thinking, Yossa! My thinking exactly too. I was composing the message to WPC telling them this in my head the whole afternoon.

 

[2metraninja]

I would like it more said this way:

Hi Scooter,

We like your NAP proposal but we want to add a couple things. We would like for the duration of the NAP you to give us the Stone which we were going to get with a city of ours on the isthmus as we informed you. We also would like to increase our happy cap. Since you guys have a surplus spice, we would like your assurance that you will gift us Stone + Spice for the duration of the NAP. We will be getting a bunch of wine resources soon which we will of course share with you on our side. If this is OK with you then we can consider our NAP extended to turn 170 as soon as you confirm.

Caledorn

What you guys think?

 

[Caledorn]

What you guys think?

As some have already said the insult and error on their part was HUGE... practically backstabbing dealbreaking IMO. So we can come back to the well later when there is something bigger to be had, something more controversial at stake... THEN we bring up how insulted and cheated we felt and how we swallowed our pride and sacrificed for the good of the friendship...blah, blah, blah. Then they will have to give in or give us the moral high ground to stab them in the belly.

I am strongly in favour of what Sommer is saying here, and I think the idea of mentioning the city now is very bad. So I am in favour of sending Sommer's draft as it is, without revisions. Using the city as a point to gain a stone is simply not good enough "payment" in my eyes, and I would rather we save that indignation for a later date when there is something more important to be gained than just a stone resource.

 

[whb]

70 turns of stone is nothing.

Settle the city where it helps us most (ie, don't settle a rubbish location), and I suspect we're likely to pinch a stone off another neighbour at some point anyway.

 

[SilentConfusion]

If we are to send them a message the quickest way would be to use GTalk to get a feeling for what scooter initially thinks, followed up by an official mail after that. I suggest we do it that way if we are to ask.

On that note, I strongly doubt they will agree to a deal for nothing. And I strongly doubt they feel any remorse or guilt about their city. On the contrary I am pretty certain they feel they have outplayed us and are now gloating a bit on how good players they are compared to us. Asking them for resources for free will most likely make them ridicule us in their forums, but it does lend a certain credibility to us behaving irrationally and unexpected though, as I am certain they don't expect us to look like we are begging at their door... Hm...

I am strongly in favour of what Sommer is saying here, and I think the idea of mentioning the city now is very bad. So I am in favour of sending Sommer's draft as it is, without revisions. Using the city as a point to gain a stone is simply not good enough "payment" in my eyes, and I would rather we save that indignation for a later date when there is something more important to be gained than just a stone resource.

I agree with Caledorn and Sommerswerd. I would rather not mention the city. I also like Sommer's message as is.

 

[Caledorn]

I have rewritten Sommerswerd's draft into my style of writing. Feel free to come with comments if there is any last minute suggestions. I intend to send it off later today (leaving room for some comments on my rewrite just in case).

Scooter/RB,

We like your suggested NAP and preferred resource trade partners agreement, but we would like to add a few things to the table. We are going to need some stone very soon, and we are also nearing our happy cap. Since you guys have a surplus of spices, and will also soon have a surplus of stone, we would like your assurance that you will gift us these resources for the duration of the NAP. We are soon going to get a surplus of wine, which we can make a deal with you for as soon as we have worked the tiles.

If this sounds okay to you, then we are in agreement and our NAP can be considered extended to turn 170 as soon as we receive a confirmation from you.

Caledorn on behalf of Team CFC