2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Yes, Beta told me he sees how futile is continuing the war and is sad about their state of affairs. He said they need more workers, not more axes.
Foreign Policy: WePlayCiv
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2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Also, glad to see you back to the team, Captain Sommers 
cav scout
The Continuum
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I like where Sommers is going with this. It is important for them to clearly understand the following:
1. We believe this war of theirs has played out and now is the time to kiss and make up with the Germans.
2. If they don't end the war now they are going to fall hopelessly behind.
3. We want to be super close allies/BFFs with them because we think they are rad... but if they aren't going to end the war now they won't be a strong ally for us
Please don't let us down WPC! 
1. We believe this war of theirs has played out and now is the time to kiss and make up with the Germans.
2. If they don't end the war now they are going to fall hopelessly behind.
3. We want to be super close allies/BFFs with them because we think they are rad... but if they aren't going to end the war now they won't be a strong ally for us
Please don't let us down WPC!
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I will write something to WPC in the lines of what we discussed lately, albeit not that direct. Sometimes when you directly tell people bad things which are quite obvious for the side observer, they might get offended and act out of spite for as if those telling them the simple truth are the reason things to be as they are and they might hate you. As hating the messenger is usually easier than accepting the unpleasant real facts 
RegentMan
Deity
From the main forum, it looks like WPC has officially made peace with the German team.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Here is log of a chat that I had today with Proviisori of WPC:
[09.2.2013 г. 19:49:44] Proviisori: Hello, did you get my mail about the NAP?
[11:27:04] 2metraninja: hello
[11:27:30] Proviisori: hey! :)
[11:27:58] 2metraninja: yes, we did got that and we were in process of discussing an answer when you got the peace with Germans and most of it became irrelevant, so we had to start a new one
[11:28:16] 2metraninja: congrats on the peace btw, it was the correct move from our point of view
[11:28:59] Proviisori: Oh yes, the number crunchers (builders) wanted it for our push for stronger units.
[11:29:14] 2metraninja: I am compising the message in my head for few days already, but it is good that you are online so we can slear few things instead of making forth and back official messages
[11:29:32] 2metraninja: composing*
[11:29:34] Proviisori: aye aye
[11:29:45] Proviisori: what is on your mind? :)
[11:29:55] 2metraninja: first, I wont hide that we look at RB as the local superpower
[11:30:16] Proviisori: We share that view
[11:30:43] 2metraninja: and most of our international politics decissions are conformable with their moves
[11:31:21] 2metraninja: I wanted to ask you did you got a NAP with them and is at a long one?
[11:31:45] 2metraninja: we currently have NAP till turn 130 with them
[11:33:32] Proviisori: Ah, yes we have NAP. It is mainly due to our earlier talks where you had a hunch about them planning an attack against us. So in order to get breathing room with our Inca campaing, I pushed for a NAP with them.
[11:34:00] 2metraninja: thats actually good. I would be interested to know if you got a long NAP with Germans too
[11:34:24] Proviisori: Our NAP is a little bit longer than yours, but I guess we signed it later.
[11:34:56] 2metraninja: but thats actually great
[11:35:18] Proviisori: Our relations with germans are not at that level. Actually we don't want to sign a NAP yet. It's just a peace for now.
[11:35:45] 2metraninja: we are concerned that our NAP lengths can be very different and Rb may set things up that we have NAP with them and to be unable to interfere if they attack you
[11:36:08] Proviisori: I see :)
[11:36:44] 2metraninja: I wont hide too that beside the mutual sympathy we feel for each-other teams with you guys, we look at this also pragmatic
[11:37:26 | Edited 11:37:33] 2metraninja: this actually adds up to the warm feelings to make us even more concerned with your safety and well-being
[11:38:58] Proviisori: Thanks :) At this moment, we see no potential dangers from our neighbours. The relations with team UniversCiv to our east are also peaceful.
[11:39:43] 2metraninja: in case I missed somehow to say/show this, we look at you as our best long-term strategic partner
[11:40:29] Proviisori: Good, it will be a prosperous co-operation, we feel.
[11:40:48] Proviisori: north-south collaboration
[11:41:13] 2metraninja: we have great channels of communication and high level of understanding each-other. It is real pain to make diplomacy with ethnic distinctive/strange groups of players as Spaniards or French
[11:42:58] Proviisori: Ahaha! They say that Finnish people talk little, but when they say something they mean business. I guess it is good that I am the diplo guy of team.
[11:44:07] 2metraninja: what are your observations about Uciv? they speak little and not something specific to us
[11:46:31] Proviisori: Yes, their communications are short. But I think they are fairly easy to handle and their thinking is quite smart too. We have commercial co-operation with them and we have set up some rules to lessen possible frictions between our nations.
[11:46:55] Proviisori: Thus we see no problem or dangers from that direction at this moment.
[11:47:26] 2metraninja: we dont look at them as threat too
[11:47:37] 2metraninja: just cant get trough their way of thinking/dealing
[11:47:49] Proviisori: They seem to be more builderer type of team.
[11:48:06] 2metraninja: their ORG trait helps them in this
[11:48:15] Proviisori: yeah
[11:49:09] Proviisori: Possibly powerful in the future if they can grow in peace, but for now they don't seem to be dangerous.
[11:49:45] Proviisori: Anyway even if they grow powerful, I doubt they could fend off an attack from two or more civs.
[11:50:54] 2metraninja: is this random though or some specific observation?
[11:55:28] Proviisori: Speculation based on their action in this game. I have no insider info on UniversCiv as a group.
[11:56:58] 2metraninja: they dont have OB with anyone, which is weird
[11:57:41] Proviisori: They do... with us, I think.
[11:58:29] Proviisori: At least Beta said that they offered it.
[11:58:30] 2metraninja: hmm, interesting, that would be something new, last time I checked they had none
[11:59:11] Proviisori: It should be quite new, but we should have it. You can naturally check it.
[11:59:21] 2metraninja: yes, yes
[11:59:42] Proviisori: Only Beta logs in, so I didn't see it, but he said that the OB is done.
[12:00:37] 2metraninja: I see
[12:03:29] Proviisori: I checked... the OB was on from turn 95 onwards.
[12:03:47] 2metraninja: yes, I see - quite soon
[12:04:52] 2metraninja: I will make sure we have an official answer to you the fastest way possible
[12:05:17] Proviisori: yeah.. we'll be waiting for it. :)
[12:06:05] 2metraninja: you have my assurances again that we look at you as natural and desirable long-term strategic partner
[12:06:27] Proviisori: Thanks, same feelings here also.
[12:06:42] 2metraninja: thanks
[12:07:18] 2metraninja: we are about to make contact with CP soon, do you have contact with them?
[12:08:22] Proviisori: Nope, but we plan on sending out scouts as we have peace with the germans.
[12:09:04] Proviisori: To get a better view on the map and contact other civs.
[12:09:07] 2metraninja: anyone to your north?
[12:09:21] Proviisori: Just polar bears! :)
[12:09:22] 2metraninja: we can guide you to get contact to Spaniards trough our territory
[12:11:26] Proviisori: Thanks, I'll inform about this to our "military guys"
[12:12:18] Proviisori: BTW... the north is limited by sea. Beyond the tundra and ice at our northern border.
[12:12:57] 2metraninja: we believe same is with our south, although we are not explored it gully
[12:13:01] 2metraninja: fully*
[12:13:45] Proviisori: Yes... a ship might be a quick way to see the shape of the world.
[12:14:04] 2metraninja: yes, ships could be handy
[09.2.2013 г. 19:49:44] Proviisori: Hello, did you get my mail about the NAP?
[11:27:04] 2metraninja: hello
[11:27:30] Proviisori: hey! :)
[11:27:58] 2metraninja: yes, we did got that and we were in process of discussing an answer when you got the peace with Germans and most of it became irrelevant, so we had to start a new one
[11:28:16] 2metraninja: congrats on the peace btw, it was the correct move from our point of view
[11:28:59] Proviisori: Oh yes, the number crunchers (builders) wanted it for our push for stronger units.
[11:29:14] 2metraninja: I am compising the message in my head for few days already, but it is good that you are online so we can slear few things instead of making forth and back official messages
[11:29:32] 2metraninja: composing*
[11:29:34] Proviisori: aye aye
[11:29:45] Proviisori: what is on your mind? :)
[11:29:55] 2metraninja: first, I wont hide that we look at RB as the local superpower
[11:30:16] Proviisori: We share that view
[11:30:43] 2metraninja: and most of our international politics decissions are conformable with their moves
[11:31:21] 2metraninja: I wanted to ask you did you got a NAP with them and is at a long one?
[11:31:45] 2metraninja: we currently have NAP till turn 130 with them
[11:33:32] Proviisori: Ah, yes we have NAP. It is mainly due to our earlier talks where you had a hunch about them planning an attack against us. So in order to get breathing room with our Inca campaing, I pushed for a NAP with them.
[11:34:00] 2metraninja: thats actually good. I would be interested to know if you got a long NAP with Germans too
[11:34:24] Proviisori: Our NAP is a little bit longer than yours, but I guess we signed it later.
[11:34:56] 2metraninja: but thats actually great
[11:35:18] Proviisori: Our relations with germans are not at that level. Actually we don't want to sign a NAP yet. It's just a peace for now.
[11:35:45] 2metraninja: we are concerned that our NAP lengths can be very different and Rb may set things up that we have NAP with them and to be unable to interfere if they attack you
[11:36:08] Proviisori: I see :)
[11:36:44] 2metraninja: I wont hide too that beside the mutual sympathy we feel for each-other teams with you guys, we look at this also pragmatic
[11:37:26 | Edited 11:37:33] 2metraninja: this actually adds up to the warm feelings to make us even more concerned with your safety and well-being
[11:38:58] Proviisori: Thanks :) At this moment, we see no potential dangers from our neighbours. The relations with team UniversCiv to our east are also peaceful.
[11:39:43] 2metraninja: in case I missed somehow to say/show this, we look at you as our best long-term strategic partner
[11:40:29] Proviisori: Good, it will be a prosperous co-operation, we feel.
[11:40:48] Proviisori: north-south collaboration
[11:41:13] 2metraninja: we have great channels of communication and high level of understanding each-other. It is real pain to make diplomacy with ethnic distinctive/strange groups of players as Spaniards or French
[11:42:58] Proviisori: Ahaha! They say that Finnish people talk little, but when they say something they mean business. I guess it is good that I am the diplo guy of team.
[11:44:07] 2metraninja: what are your observations about Uciv? they speak little and not something specific to us
[11:46:31] Proviisori: Yes, their communications are short. But I think they are fairly easy to handle and their thinking is quite smart too. We have commercial co-operation with them and we have set up some rules to lessen possible frictions between our nations.
[11:46:55] Proviisori: Thus we see no problem or dangers from that direction at this moment.
[11:47:26] 2metraninja: we dont look at them as threat too
[11:47:37] 2metraninja: just cant get trough their way of thinking/dealing
[11:47:49] Proviisori: They seem to be more builderer type of team.
[11:48:06] 2metraninja: their ORG trait helps them in this
[11:48:15] Proviisori: yeah
[11:49:09] Proviisori: Possibly powerful in the future if they can grow in peace, but for now they don't seem to be dangerous.
[11:49:45] Proviisori: Anyway even if they grow powerful, I doubt they could fend off an attack from two or more civs.
[11:50:54] 2metraninja: is this random though or some specific observation?
[11:55:28] Proviisori: Speculation based on their action in this game. I have no insider info on UniversCiv as a group.
[11:56:58] 2metraninja: they dont have OB with anyone, which is weird
[11:57:41] Proviisori: They do... with us, I think.
[11:58:29] Proviisori: At least Beta said that they offered it.
[11:58:30] 2metraninja: hmm, interesting, that would be something new, last time I checked they had none
[11:59:11] Proviisori: It should be quite new, but we should have it. You can naturally check it.
[11:59:21] 2metraninja: yes, yes
[11:59:42] Proviisori: Only Beta logs in, so I didn't see it, but he said that the OB is done.
[12:00:37] 2metraninja: I see
[12:03:29] Proviisori: I checked... the OB was on from turn 95 onwards.
[12:03:47] 2metraninja: yes, I see - quite soon
[12:04:52] 2metraninja: I will make sure we have an official answer to you the fastest way possible
[12:05:17] Proviisori: yeah.. we'll be waiting for it. :)
[12:06:05] 2metraninja: you have my assurances again that we look at you as natural and desirable long-term strategic partner
[12:06:27] Proviisori: Thanks, same feelings here also.
[12:06:42] 2metraninja: thanks
[12:07:18] 2metraninja: we are about to make contact with CP soon, do you have contact with them?
[12:08:22] Proviisori: Nope, but we plan on sending out scouts as we have peace with the germans.
[12:09:04] Proviisori: To get a better view on the map and contact other civs.
[12:09:07] 2metraninja: anyone to your north?
[12:09:21] Proviisori: Just polar bears! :)
[12:09:22] 2metraninja: we can guide you to get contact to Spaniards trough our territory
[12:11:26] Proviisori: Thanks, I'll inform about this to our "military guys"
[12:12:18] Proviisori: BTW... the north is limited by sea. Beyond the tundra and ice at our northern border.
[12:12:57] 2metraninja: we believe same is with our south, although we are not explored it gully
[12:13:01] 2metraninja: fully*
[12:13:45] Proviisori: Yes... a ship might be a quick way to see the shape of the world.
[12:14:04] 2metraninja: yes, ships could be handy
Feels nice to be right 
On more serious point, it is very nice that WPC shares the concern about RB. Though Proviisori quite did not confirm that they want to build a long term cooperation with us, I'd say these guys are safe to deal with (at least until RB is dead).
If you need any insights into Finnish "psyche" I'm happy to help.
On more serious point, it is very nice that WPC shares the concern about RB. Though Proviisori quite did not confirm that they want to build a long term cooperation with us, I'd say these guys are safe to deal with (at least until RB is dead).
YossarianLives
Deity
Nice chat 2metra! Very revealing.
One thing that is very important to note is that WPC is using their peace to tech up to more advanced units to attack the Germans again. Seems unlikely that we're going to be able to broker a CFC -WPC-German alliance against RB. Also seems unlikely that WPC is going to be able to help in any sort of dogpile if they're busy sending their troops to die in German lands. We may really have to rely on CP to help us against RB, so it's important we work on immediate good relations with them.
One thing that is very important to note is that WPC is using their peace to tech up to more advanced units to attack the Germans again. Seems unlikely that we're going to be able to broker a CFC -WPC-German alliance against RB. Also seems unlikely that WPC is going to be able to help in any sort of dogpile if they're busy sending their troops to die in German lands. We may really have to rely on CP to help us against RB, so it's important we work on immediate good relations with them.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
I never though on that this way until now. CP are RB's other neighbor actually and CP have a score to settle with RB, so we might have way easier time dealing with RB threat than we expected.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
You mean WPC and Uciv? I think so too. Proviisori told me they have OB with them (and I think Uciv have no OB with anyone else) and he mentioned "trade deals with Uciv" or something.
If WPC is close to UCiv, how does that affect our plans on who to attack first?
It seems to me that if we think WPC is an ally of UCiv, and we want to attack UCiv, then we want WPC fighting someone else when this happens so they cant send any aid to UCiv, right?
It seems to me that if we think WPC is an ally of UCiv, and we want to attack UCiv, then we want WPC fighting someone else when this happens so they cant send any aid to UCiv, right?
SilentConfusion
Emperor
It seems like if we do nothing they will be attacking Civforum.de as soon as they think they can.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Damn, I still dont know what to say to WPC. Do we accept NAP up to t170 and thats it? Do we insist they get NAP with Germans too and not prepare second wave of mutual destruction? Do we reveal in straight text that we want them alive and kicking so they are able to resist/attack RB if/when it comes to this?
Wait, isn't like 2 big kingdoms and 1 small? Sun Tzu says, that if RB attacks WPC we should help WPC, not dogpile them
(Or at least would say if there were no other civs 
).Seriously though, I believe we should agree with NAP till 170. This gives us an opportunity to prepare for war against either RB or UCiv, depending on how CP feels about RB at the moment. We could voice our concerns about their vendetta against Germans but we have to be careful about this. There isn't an easier way to alienate WPC completely than insisting them to abandon their reckless behaviour.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
We already do have NAP with RB and most probably will want to have such until at least turn 170, so we would not have been in position to help WPC against RB anyway.So at least we could have benefited a bit.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Yes, I absolutely have this in mind. This however requires serious logistics - BR-WPC fron could be on some good 10 turns travel time and when our brave soldiers arrive, it will be too late to change a thing. I've been there and I know how hard is to help an ally if you are to send the help to him first and not act yourself. In our RB-WPC-CFC example we could been as Damocles sword which threatens RB's east front all the time so they cant easily leave enough army to defend from us and attack WPC successfully. While if we are to wait until RB actually attack WPC to start move army their way around the lake, those are good 10+ turns before we can arrive to be of any help. Another issue (minor and not always necessary, but still issue) is how well those who we gift units will use them. Not everyone is strategic genius or share our view on strategy/tactics. I've seen allies which just waste their allies armies. It will be times better if we have the comfort of leading our armies ourselves.
Btw, all the times when signing NAP I do fear - a little - that this is a huge trap. It takes only one of my neighbors to come and ask me if I give my word to not declare war to him and he promises the same. But he might have evil intentions and reasonable army. The moment we have already NAP, he goes and gifts his army to another of my neighbors, who want to attack me. The second one have double army and the first one is not even going to fear about his cities and his property, because I gave my word to not declare war to him! I've seen players try to avoid such situation by including a clause "none of the parties will gift units nor transfer money to third party/es which they know want to attack the other or are already in war with" but this is still open to interpretation.
Can anyone come with better clause/assurance that this wont happen beside "No units will be gifted or money transferred to third party/es without the explicit written consent of all the parties in this NAP"?
Btw, all the times when signing NAP I do fear - a little - that this is a huge trap. It takes only one of my neighbors to come and ask me if I give my word to not declare war to him and he promises the same. But he might have evil intentions and reasonable army. The moment we have already NAP, he goes and gifts his army to another of my neighbors, who want to attack me. The second one have double army and the first one is not even going to fear about his cities and his property, because I gave my word to not declare war to him! I've seen players try to avoid such situation by including a clause "none of the parties will gift units nor transfer money to third party/es which they know want to attack the other or are already in war with" but this is still open to interpretation.
Can anyone come with better clause/assurance that this wont happen beside "No units will be gifted or money transferred to third party/es without the explicit written consent of all the parties in this NAP"?
This is my concern as well. Let's say we get the NAP with WPC and then we go after UCiv. What stops WPC from sending units to UCiv?
We really need to make a decision about who will will attack first. That will make it a little easier to decide what NAPs we want and how to set the terms.
We really need to make a decision about who will will attack first. That will make it a little easier to decide what NAPs we want and how to set the terms.
Caledorn
Emperor
I know the sentiment is that we should attack UCiv first, but I do not understand the entire reasoning behind it. Being on Emperor level, UCiv's cities are a bit far away in terms of maintenance, no? While Spanish Apolyton, who is closer in terms of relative tile distance is too weak (and thus we do a baddie if we wish to follow Sun Tzu's teachings). Now, by attacking UCiv we will have a large front on the N-S axis to defend. We have a NAP with WPC on the NW of that axis, and we have a NAP with RB on the SW of that axis. However, by becoming WPC's neighbor, we effectively deny them expansion eastwards and force them into either confronting the Germans or RB. Do you guys think WPC will appreciate that we "force their hand" so to say, if we desire a long-term alliance with them? My gut feeling is that SpAp is a better target than UCiv, for these reasons. But I will leave the decision-making to those of you who have far more experience than me with wars in Civ4.
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