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Foreign Policy: WePlayCiv

Discussion in 'Team CivFanatics' started by talonschild, Jul 29, 2012.

  1. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Daniel of WPC just logged in to the game. Now they should know we met for sure if they did not saw the e-mails and PMs.
     
  2. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    I've copied your post from the turn discussion thread over here Yossarian.

    I was surprised that RB did not enforce such a clause in the NAP terms when we met them, and I am equally surprised that these terms are being enforced by a team that are considered less a threat than RB. I agree with your opinion that this does not make sense in a trustbuilding perspective. Given the espy slider, and also the direction we came from, it is quite probable that they believe we are both their first contact and also their closest neighbour in the southwest.

    That being said, I see no reason why we should disagree if that's their clause. I think you're going to have your work cut out for you here though, 2metraninja, if we wish to cultivate a relationship with them that goes beyond the NAP.

    I like the idea that has been presented of "accidentally" let them know that RB is just a short distance away from them, while we're actually quite a bit of distance off. However, I must - as the Chief Diplomat - warn about the possible ramifications of doing so. They should be obvious, but I am convinced we both should and must discuss them.

    First of all, if RB finds out during the duration of the game that we have done so, it will be considered a highly aggressive act, and will most likely shut down all possible avenues of further cooperation with RB from that point on.

    Second, WPC may consider us traitorous at heart if they realize what we try to achieve by doing so. This may have several results, where the most dangerous one is that they turn upon us together with RB leaving us in a situation where we have two other teams locked in a pretty solid alliance (common grounds for war is the best foundation for an alliance), until we are dead.

    As such, my advice is that we need to carefully consider our options, and that if we decide we wish to attempt to cultivate hostility between WPC and RB, it needs to be done in a masterful manner. I have complete faith in 2metraninja's and the team's joint abilities to pull it off, so I am certain we can do it if we want to. We just need to be extremely careful and outright devious about it if we decide to do it.
     
  3. Aivoturso

    Aivoturso King

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    I do not have any problem in accepting NAP with those terms. We want to let them concentrate their Dog Soldiers on someone else. Not getting to skirt their borders is a minor annoyance. And I wouldn't say that is too distrustful a gesture either. I mean, we did also intentionally conceal the fact that we've already met someone else from them too.

    About letting them know of RB. Why don't we just try to negotiate the same contact sharing deal with them as we have with RB? No reason to keep the agreement exclusively between us and RB, really. That way they should have no reason to suspect we have any ulterior motives behind letting them know of their close neighbour.
     
  4. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    I don't suppose it is as simple as saying, "We apologize for the espy concentration - we've just come from meeting RB and we've agreed to focus our espy elsewhere." If we could work in how they're strong and espy was a pointless aggravation when directed at them... Or something. 2metra, good luck.

    If we can pull it off, let's try. If we're not sure, don't bother.
     
  5. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    My thinking too. If they are paranoid, the best way to calm their worry is to just do what they ask from us. We are not going to get married, so we dont want to change their whole perception about life and value system. We just want them to send their dogs somewhere else and have a piece of mind to develop. Maybe a good partner and secure border too at a later stage. We must respect their wish and hope someone else (who we will point kindly to their direction) would not :)

    Very, very good thinking. I like this suggestion a lot.

    Shouldnt be a problem. Even if we tell them the truth - that we wanted to wait to see their reaction to our greeting message and trying to test them to get a deal about sharing meeting info before letting them know we have met another team, they will see that we were just cautious and aware. And those who are aware and act sound are those who you respect and want as a friends, right?
     
  6. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Proviisori being their foreign minister is something which surprises and confuses me a bit. As sadly I almost dont know this guy and never played in a game with him, so I dont know what to expect. Hopefully he is just the voice of the core players at WPC, so we still keep the advantage of me knowing them.

    Proviisori did lurked in one of our games at WPC spoiler thread though, so maybe he knows me and Sommerswerd better than we do know him :)
     
  7. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    So here is a draft of our message to WPC with the ideas and sentiments as I see them. Anyone, feel free to question/object about anything you wish.

    "Greetings WPC and nice to meet you, Proviisori. It seems we are just starting to discover the wonder things this word holds just as other teams and hopefully one-big-foot-legged Patagonians.

    Of course we will honor your expressed desire and will not come near your borders, so we consider the NAP already in effect.

    In hope of further improving our relations and help each- other, would you guys be interested in agreeing to notify each other once we meet other teams? Seems like it'd be a good idea to pool knowledge on our surroundings.

    As we speak of surroundings, could you please advice us what terrain lies east and west of you, so we can decide where is safer to go around you using defensive terrains to continue our scouting? Also info on barbarian units and wild animals in sight will be of great help to us.

    2metraninja on behalf of Team CFC"
     
  8. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    The draft looks great, I'm ok with sending it as is. I'm just not sure what this part means.

    How are we getting messages to them? Did we figure out their email account, or are we sending pm's to their WPC accounts? Just checked our email account and I see that Proviisori sent us the message from his personal email, and cc'ed the WPC diplo account we had before. We should probably send future messages to both accounts, as well. I also see we received this follow-up email:

    Nothing of importance there, except that request that we really can't do anything about. Also, noticed they bolded "on a condition that you remain 1 square away from our borders with your units, and we shall do the same", so I guess it's pretty important to them that we move away next turn.
     
  9. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    This is from a game I and Sommers currently play at WPC. I made a rough map of the world and Proviisori commented there about one character from the map. Here it is the discussion.

    http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/showthread.php?6576-ACtA-TT-Team-Blackadders/page21

    Sending the message then.

    Will leave some 6-7 hours for WPC to possibly answer. If I am not played the turn in 6 and a half hours from now on, I would ask some of the other turnplayers to log in and play our turn.
     
  10. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    Ahh, surprisingly that phrase does make a lot more sense with one simple picture. Thanks for the link!

    So you're playing at least 4 Pitboss games here at CFC, one over at RB, and another at WPC. No wonder you had to pass on the Intrateam Pitboss!
     
  11. grant2004

    grant2004 Citizen

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    I decided it would make sense to at least play out the MM for the turn, while we wait for word from WPC. I checked our mail for the lastest plan, and was pleased to find a response from WPC. I like these guys, they're quick and very informative.
    Spoiler :
    Hello,

    I would rather not meet the one-legged-Patagonians. Their hobbies are suspicious to say the least. Personally I'm not interested in that kind of activities. ;)

    Thank you for understanding our desire for privacy.
    Indeed, NAP is in effect and we are also staying clear from your borders as travelling around your lands.

    I might be good to share that information when finding other nations near us. You are the first and only one we have made contact with up to this point. I will discuss this matter with the elders of our nation and try to reach some kind of agreement.

    To east we have a small lake and temperate woods, hills and some grassland.
    To west from our borders lies a relatively large fresh water lake and mostly plains and tundra, mixed with forests. Path near the big lake is unfortunately blocked by our border.
    I guess our tribe was placed quite north. It must be colder here than in your huts, but we'll manage with fur coats, fireplaces and... beer.

    At this moment, we don't see any wildlife near our settlements or scouts. Also smelly barbarians also have not come out from their damp caves.

    FM of WPC
    Proviisori


    I'll head east with Tunderfall based on their comments. The big revelation from this message is that they are on tundra as well! This throws our theories about a 3x3 grid completely out the window. The teams we've met so far line up well on the grid we'd been assuming, but I don't see how a third team could exist between us and WPC, in a balanced arrangement. I also don't see how this would work with a uniform grid if it's only 2 civs high. Plako has something up his sleeve :)
     
  12. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    ...and now we tell them we just came from RB?

    Incidentally, I think these guys could be very good to work with.
     
  13. Caledorn

    Caledorn Emperor

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    Agreed! Their response time and the amount of information they offer to us is very promising.

    Good move. :)

    Hm. Plako may have made the map in an unexpected size format: perhaps the number of tiles in the width is a lot higher than usual. Or: he could have put in two strips of tundra to confuse people. Or even worse: he may have randomly blotted in some tundra here and there to further confuse us even more. I like this map! :)
     
  14. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    If they agree to share info about making contact with other teams I think it would be the perfect to share with them the same level of detail we just shared with RB: Direction, distance and the resource between them and RB's gold mine city (oops, did we just share that RB has a gold mine? :mischief: )

    RB hasn't asked us to keep their location a secret, they actually want to make contact with all the other teams.

    We need to switch back to balanced espionage distribution asap also. We can say we were being cautious initially since we weren't sure if they wanted to share info. But since they do share we think they are awesome cool guys and we should be best friends forever.
     
  15. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

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    Well, they already told us they haven't met anyone else yet. That in itself seems like acceptance. Now is the perfect time to set a standard for level of detail. Something like "x south and y southwest of your capital you should find an RB gold mine city."
     
  16. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    Yeah, I decided to use the best personal chunk of contact I have with Proviisori to our team's diplomatic advantage.


    In fact, I do play in even more games.

    4 games at CFC:
    The ISDG2012 of course which being a team game takes a good chunk of time and efforts,
    the still unfinished Amazon intrateam pitboss III from the last MTDG2 -
    http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2112
    where even I play 2 civs in a modern age large scale alliance war, due to a player decided to drop off the game. It is sad game, where we lost 2 major players, so we had to play their turns to keep the balance of alliances and where will be nuked away in just few turns by Elkad who got to nukes first :) Sigh, this will be my second game which I will lose. Also other 2 games at CFC I play:
    http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2386
    http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2407

    At WPC I play another 4:
    http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2442
    http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2447
    http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2448
    and another one with no-score mod http://www.civstats.com/viewgame.php?gameid=2446

    At Apolyton, I play in only one diplo-game. At RB I only occasional read the team thread as I dont have time and energy to participate active in one more team game. Yeah, thats a lot of games even for dedicated player. :)

    Also, it appears that I almost play most games at WPC at the moment. They have the excellent tool of Artemis - this is dedicated server for Civ4, where they can host like 20 pitbosses simultaneously.
     
  17. Aivoturso

    Aivoturso King

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    Not a full acceptance yet, since Proviisori says that he needs to talk with the team. But I think that since he admitted that they haven't met anyone (which we already knew, but nevermind) we can safely return the favour without them getting suspicious. I mean, we want them to know that there is a nice and rich city well within range of dog soldiers no matter do they agree to share everything, right? :satan:

    I say, let's share the first bit of contact info before they have time to decide. If they decline the agreement, we can't very well share the info anymore without looking suspicious. Sharing the RB location immediately gives them also a nice incentive to agree to the info sharing deal. And it conviniently removes all unnecessary skeletons from our closet and helps us gain even footing with them making a path to potential alliance a bit smoother than postponing info sharing would do. So all in all, I think a prompt response including RBs post number would be in our benefit.
     
  18. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I'll sit with you

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    Honesty is (almost) always the best policy ;). Diplo with WPC seems to be going well so far, Provisorii is a little bit of a mystery as he lurks 2metra and I in one of the WPC games we play, but anyone would be better than Rhothaerill :yuck: as 2metra has already pointed out... HEHATEME (in a Civ sense:) not RL AFAIK).
     
  19. YossarianLives

    YossarianLives Deity

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    So, we should definitely tell WPC about RB and where they can find their borders. Whether or not we tell them it's a Gold city or that it's planted in their direction, they should figure those things out when they find follow our directions to find the city.

    Anything else we should include in our message to them? I don't necessarily think we need to tell them about the tundra around us, but maybe tell them about the land between them and RB?
     
  20. 2metraninja

    2metraninja Defender of Nabaxica

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    It will be good to tell them about the city. They might decide it is RB's capitol, where it is a second city planted in their direction ;)

    This needs a bit more thinking and brainstorming. We can tell them about the tundra and they think: we must try to take land against RB, as CFC are pressed from their south by tundra and they have nowhere to go, so trying to take land in their direction will be strongly resisted" or they might think the exact opposite way: "Better hurry and take the good land between WPC and CFC, because CFC inevitably will try to do this too, as they have only tundra to their south".
     

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