Forest/jungle plantation luxury starts and tech tree

You're really not safe in the jungle unless you've got a jungle-bonus yourself. It's hard to overstate what a massive disadvantage junglestarts actually are.
Your exploration ability will be heavily hampered, your first warrior can't really move at all and your scouts got really limited vision-range, this means you pretty much lose out on most ancient ruins/city-state-discover-bonuses.
Your happiness will be limited because you can't connect luxuries (do seriously consider settling your cities on top of the luxuries if you get such a start). This will probably not drop you into negative happiness, but you're still losing out on yields and possible trades.
Your improvements will be way behind, workers can't remove jungle anyways, so you're going to cut them, which furthers slows down development. You're also forced to dump a lot of hammers into a herbalist as soon as it is available, which helps with the meh tiles, but definitely doesn't help with your lack of workers.
Your ability to wage war is limited, not only do you not have access to good production-tiles, but you also have no real way to move units out of your territory. You think attacking into jungle is hard? Attacking out of a jungle is just as bad, if not worse, as you can't reinforce at all.
Your only available bonus-resource is Bananas, and they are a non-factor before plantation, and even worse when you're halfway to the plantation (could they please get their base-yields back?)
And the biggest problem of all, horses don't spawn in jungle. Iron can spawn in jungle, but it to be less common than out of the jungle, and it takes forever to improve.



Also about that whole plantation/terrace farm discussion, Terrace-farms does not count as farms for adjacency bonues, that interaction is impossible (according to G), they simply add food to all adjacent farms.
 
What I dont like about jungle forest start is limited early movement and RARE!!! strategic resource. No horse,rare iron, no oil.

The only good think is, it has extra 1 yield(f/p) from basic tile. But with early low pop, some resource tile is enough.

The only situation I wish I have abundance of jungle forest is when playing Maya or Celt. Iruqois,aztec,and shosone are quite okay on jungle/forest start too.
Not sure about brazil.
 
What I dont like about jungle forest start is limited early movement and RARE!!! strategic resource. No horse,rare iron, no oil.

The only good think is, it has extra 1 yield(f/p) from basic tile. But with early low pop, some resource tile is enough.

The only situation I wish I have abundance of jungle forest is when playing Maya or Celt. Iruqois,aztec,and shosone are quite okay on jungle/forest start too.
Not sure about brazil.
In those starts, you need to rush for herbalist, so the early unit you can have is archer. If you have some jungle hills, those archers can defend pretty well, joining your warriors, but exploring or go chasing barbs is a PITA. Barbs are particularily annoying, since they move too fast on jungles, you really want the lumberjack promotion.
 
How about making chop jungles available on bronze working, but make it take longer time? I.e. chop forest takes 5 turns (not sure about the actual number), and chop jungles takes 10 turns. And chop jungle time becomes equal to chop forest time with iron working. It will at least make it possible to connect some resourses before iron working, so you don't need to rush it that hard
 
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How about making chop jungles available on bronze working, but make it take longer time? I.e. chop forest takes 5 turns (not sure about the actual number), and chop jungles takes 10 turns. And chop jungle time becomes equal to chop forest time with iron working. It will at least make it possible to connect some resourses before iron working, so you don't need to rush it that hard
I don't know if that's possible, but may help. Turning jungles into forest after chopping could do the trick.
 
How about making chop jungles available on bronze working, but make it take longer time? I.e. chop forest takes 5 turns (not sure about the actual number), and chop jungles takes 10 turns. And chop jungle time becomes equal to chop forest time with iron working. It will at least make it possible to connect some resourses before iron working, so you don't need to rush it that hard
Making them have different chop timings is possible. I don't think reducing that time by tech is.

Does it really need to be fixed though? I hardly ever have any real problems with jungle starts. Simply buffing bananas could make it better enough.
 
Buffing bananas would help; it's so odd to have bananas spawn and do nothing to the base yields. The comparison to deer is right on the money.

I'm okay with the delayed ability to improve jungle resource tiles. The unimproved tiles are really good; I find it a nice variation in early game play. You can frequently hold off on workers for a while, or just build connections to ease movement. Even when I finally have the necessary techs I'll frequently leave improving jungle iron and stone for last (assuming I don't need the iron ASAP).
 
Buffing bananas would help; it's so odd to have bananas spawn and do nothing to the base yields. The comparison to deer is right on the money.

I'm okay with the delayed ability to improve jungle resource tiles. The unimproved tiles are really good; I find it a nice variation in early game play. You can frequently hold off on workers for a while, or just build connections to ease movement. Even when I finally have the necessary techs I'll frequently leave improving jungle iron and stone for last (assuming I don't need the iron ASAP).
The reason it was changed to work this way is because people were complaining that it wasn't worth building plantations on the Bananas at all, but I really don't think that's the case anymore.
 
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